topic Re: TjMAX is set to 115°C by default. in Mobile and Desktop Processors

TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

dougaMAT — Wed, 16 Nov 2022 01:27:16 GMT

hello.

I have a Core i9-13900K and an ASRock Z790 Steel Legend

In this combination, TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.
Therefore, even if the temperature reaches 100°C, the thermal throttle may not work and the temperature may rise to 115°C.

Is there any problem if I continue to use it as it is?
Also, is the product warranty for the CPU valid?

Re: TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

n_scott_pearson — Wed, 16 Nov 2022 01:52:11 GMT

Well, I've never seen Tjmax set that high but, rest assured, throttling will kick in at Tjmax (whatever it really is) as it should. The Tjmax temperature, as a digital value, is determined during the silicon validation process and is permanently programmed into each individual processor using a set of fuses. It is possible that this digital value was programmed incorrectly, but this digital value doesn't have anything to do with the invocation of throttling.
Now, all that said, if the digital value was programmed incorrectly, the fan speed control subsystem is going to be responding improperly as well - invoking higher fan speeds sooner or later depending upon whether temperatures are tied to the digital value or not.
Hope this helps,
...S

Re: TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

dougaMAT — Wed, 16 Nov 2022 17:43:17 GMT

Thank you for your reply. I am sorry if it is rude or inappropriate to you, since I use the online translation site.

My use of the word TjMAX may have been inappropriate; the 115°C setting on ASRock motherboards is the maximum allowable CPU temperature at which thermal throttling can be activated. This maximum allowable temperature can be changed in the BIOS, and ASRock and ASUS motherboards can be set between 62 and 115 degrees Celsius.

Most motherboards I have used so far set the maximum allowable temperature to the same value as the Tjunction listed in the product specifications of the CPU, including ASUS motherboards, which set the maximum allowable temperature to 100°C. ASRock, however, sets it to 115°C. ASUS motherboards set the maximum allowable temperature to 115°C. However, ASRock sets this to 115°C, so the CPU may run at temperatures well above the Tjunction.

My concern is, if I continue to use the CPU with the maximum allowable temperature set above Tjunction, will the product warranty still be valid? Also, will it damage the CPU?

I am sending some screenshots for your reference.

Test ASRock-1 (Thermal throttling does not work even if the temperature exceeds 100℃)
Test ASRock-2 (Thermal throttling is activated to maintain 115°C)
Test ASUS (Thermal throttling is activated to maintain 100°C)
ASRock BIOS setting
ASUS BIOS setting

Re: TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

n_scott_pearson — Wed, 16 Nov 2022 22:09:22 GMT

Are you testing the same processor in these two (ASRock vs. Asus) motherboards?

My understanding:

Desktop (as opposed to Mobile) processors have individual Tjmax temperatures.
At the silicon implementation level, the per-Core Digital Thermal Sensors (DTS) can represent temperatures at and below - but not above - the Tjmax temperature. DTS reading 0 (zero) indicates that the temperature is at or above the Tjmax temperature. Any non-zero reading indicates that the temperature is (approx.) that number of degrees Celsius below the Tjmax temperature. Bottom line, it is impossible for any temperature above the processors actual Tjmax to be represented by the DTS and thus impossible for any digital interpretation of a temperature above Tjmax to be displayed.
All Intel processors automatically invoke their thermal throttling capability when at least one Core's DTS temperature reading is zero (i.e. at or above Tjmax).
For value display and for fan speed control programming purposes, the Tjmax temperature is available to be read through an MSR. The motherboard BIOS *should* be reading this temperature and adjusting their fan speed control curves accordingly to avoid temperatures reaching Tjmax. Similarly, software *should* be reading this MSR in order to know what (Celsius scale) temperature coincides with particular DTS readings.
I have seen software that makes the HORRIBLY STUPID AND WRONG assumption that Tjmax always occurs at 100°C.

ICS will need to tell us if the 13th gen processors differ from what I have said.

...S

Re: TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

dougaMAT — Thu, 17 Nov 2022 02:36:15 GMT

The CPUs tested on the two motherboards are identical individuals. I should have made this clear.

Thank you for explaining DTS. I forgot that the CPU temperature we see is the equivalent of DTS and MSR. It is natural that the maximum temperature does not exceed 100°C when TjMAX is 100°C.

So I did an additional test. We set the maximum allowable temperature to the lowest 62°C on the ASRock motherboard and run the load test. The temperature of XTU and HWiNFO (DTS) peaked out at 62°C, but HWiNFO's "Enhanced" measured a temperature exceeding TjMAX. In any case, the maximum allowable temperature value set in the BIOS seems to work as well as TjMAX.

I understand that the original TjMAX and Tjunction are different, but is it correct to assume that the maximum allowable temperature that functions in this way is also irrelevant to the Tjunction defined in the CPU product specifications?

Re: TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

n_scott_pearson — Fri, 18 Nov 2022 00:03:04 GMT

I would hope that the answer is yes, but that's a question that ICS will need to confirm for us.

...S

Re: TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

dougaMAT — Sun, 20 Nov 2022 06:03:12 GMT

Thank you so much for your reply. Your input has really helped me to better understand. I too would like to hear ICS's opinion.

For your information, I will share the information I have at this time.

The maximum allowable temperature can only be changed for K-Series CPUs (Unlock CPU) and Z Chipset combinations. For Non-K CPUs and Chipsets other than Z, the maximum allowable temperature could not be set to any temperature other than the TJunction temperature listed in the product specification information.

I checked Intel's website again and found that the TJunction temperature listed in the CPU product information is TJunction max (TjMAX). It is the item "How can I check the Tjunction max or Tcase max for my processor?"
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000005597/processors.html

It seems that some ASRock motherboards have had TjMAX set to 115°C since at least the 9th generation Core. The "TjMAX showing 115°C" that has been reported in several cases on this forum in the past may have been caused by the combination of a K-Series CPU and an ASRock motherboard.

I contacted ASRock Japan's Twitter account (@AsrockJ) about this and they replied that they are opening up the maximum allowable temperature limit to get more performance. I am not sure ASRock's decision is the right one based on my own values for protection features, but I am interested to see what ICS makes of it.

Re:TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

AndrewG_Intel — Tue, 22 Nov 2022 20:58:00 GMT

Hello @dougaMAT

Thank you for posting on the Intel® communities.

Please allow us to look into this and we will be posting back in the thread as soon as more information is available.

Thank you also @n_scott_pearson for your support in replying to this thread.

Best regards,

Andrew G.

Intel Customer Support Technician

Re: TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

dougaMAT — Wed, 23 Nov 2022 05:59:05 GMT

Hello @AndrewG_Intel, I have been eagerly awaiting your response.
As I said to @n_scott_pearson, I use a translation site, so I apologize if I was rude.

Once again, I will organize and share my perceptions.

Basically, the temperature at which the Thermal Control Circuit (TCC) is enabled (TjMAX) cannot be changed and is set to the same value as the Tjunction listed in the CPU product specifications.

However, exceptionally, with the combination of K-series CPU and Z-series Chipset, TjMAX can be changed in the BIOS. ASRock has set TjMAX to 115°C, higher than the product specification, by using this mechanism for the purpose of obtaining more performance. This prevents TCC from operating until the CPU temperature reaches 115°C.

I would like to confirm the following.

Regarding ASRock's default setting of TjMAX = 115°C, does Intel guarantee that this is a safe setting? Also, is the CPU product warranty valid?

If ASRock's setting is safe and within the product warranty, then if we, the end users, set TjMAX to 115°C in the same way as ASRock, Intel will provide the same warranty, right?

Please let me know if there is any information you need to help you make a decision. I will cooperate to the best of my ability.

Re: TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

n_scott_pearson — Wed, 23 Nov 2022 06:27:46 GMT

Changing Tjmax like this should be considered a form of overclocking and likely will invalidate your warranty. This setting is allowing the processor to exceed its true Tjmax and pretty well guarantees that the processor's Thermal Load Line will be regularly exceeded. Sustaining this for any length of time will result in thermal degradation and a shortening of the processor's lifetime. I doubt that Intel approved this, it definitely isn't safe and Intel definitely didn't warrant it. If you fry your processor, I very much doubt intel will cover it.

...S

Re: TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

dougaMAT — Wed, 23 Nov 2022 06:38:51 GMT

Hi @n_scott_pearson.
My personal view is exactly the same as yours. I am encouraged that I am in agreement with you.

So I believe that ASRock's default settings are incorrect, but I am looking for Intel's official answer to this setting.

Re: TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

n_scott_pearson — Wed, 23 Nov 2022 21:40:50 GMT

That's a question for @AndrewG_Intel to answer...

...S

Re:TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

AndrewG_Intel — Thu, 24 Nov 2022 03:02:14 GMT

Hello dougaMAT

Thank you for the additional details and clarifications. We are still reviewing this matter and we will be posting back in the thread as soon as possible.

Best regards,

Andrew G.

Intel Customer Support Technician

Re: TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

dougaMAT — Thu, 24 Nov 2022 18:02:03 GMT

I agree. So I waited for ICS' reply.

Your answers to my questions have helped me to more accurately communicate this issue to @AndrewG_Intel. I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Re:TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

AndrewG_Intel — Tue, 29 Nov 2022 18:36:00 GMT

Hello dougaMAT

Thank you for your patience in this matter.

In regard to your inquiries, we would like to share the following details:

1) Setting TjMAX higher than the value as the Tjunction listed in the CPU product specifications. E.g.: TjMAX = 115°C, does Intel guarantee that this is a safe setting?

Processors have internal protections to prevent against excessive temperatures. Operating ranges below the protection points are highly dependent on system configuration and workload. You can find the thermal specifications for specific processors in Intel® Core™ Processor technical documentation which includes the temperature limits in which Intel processors are guaranteed to operate.

Note: The publishing team is currently working to get the Datasheet done for the 13th Gen CPUs.

2) Is the CPU product warranty valid if the end users set TjMAX to 115°C in the same way as ASRock?

Altering clock frequency and/or voltage may reduce system stability and useful life of the system and processor; The purpose of overclocking is to boost performance. In this case, modifying the TjMax maximum allowed level, which is not actually forcing the CPU to reach that but is indeed trying to boost performance and might or might not reduce system stability.

The warranty will be void because modifying the TjMax is a sign of overclocking trying to boost performance.

It's unlikely that a processor would get damaged from overheating, due to the operational safeguards in place. Processors have two modes of thermal protection, throttling and automatic shutdown.

More information is available in the article that you already referenced: Information about Temperature for Intel® Processors.

If you have additional inquiries, please don't hesitate to contact us back.

Best regards,

Andrew G.

Intel Customer Support Technician

Re: Re:TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

dougaMAT — Tue, 29 Nov 2022 19:55:07 GMT

Hello @AndrewG_Intel

Thank you for your answer. I am sorry to be so quick, but I have a few questions.

I am aware that the TjMAX(TCC Activation) of the Core i7-12700K is 100°C after browsing the following document.
https://edc.intel.com/content/www/us/en/design/ipla/software-development-platforms/client/platforms/alder-lake-desktop/12th-generation-intel-core-processors-datasheet-volume-1-of-2/fan-speed-control-scheme-with-dts/

ASRock Z790 Steel Legend WiFi sets TjMAX to 115°C by default even for Core i7-12700K. does Intel guarantee this is a safe setting? Or do you consider this a change in TjMAX that will void the warranty?

Also, if the TjMAX temperature on a Core i7-12700K is set higher than the TCC Activation temperature listed on the datasheet, should we lower the TjMAX temperature to 100C?

I also tested ASUS, MSI and GIGABYTE Z790/Z690 motherboards and they had TjMAX set to 100°C for Core i9-13900K and Core i7-12700K. did Intel only allow ASRock to change TjMAX?

Re: TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

n_scott_pearson — Tue, 29 Nov 2022 20:12:40 GMT

We've answered these questions already.

No, not safe settings and yes, likely will void your warranty.

Where you put this Tjmax is up to you. I personally believe that it should be at the TCC Activation temperature, where it belongs. I am not a proponent of overclocking and this is definitely a form of overclocking.

ASRock can do whatever they wish; Intel can't really stop them. I personally think that they should take away the ability to set Tjmax, but that's just me. Remember, all ASRock cares about is looking like they offer the best performance so that they can sell more of their motherboards. They don't care that this is overclocking the processor; it's not *their* processor's warranty that is being affected.

Off my soapbox now...

...S

Re: TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

dougaMAT — Tue, 29 Nov 2022 21:28:07 GMT

Hello @n_scott_pearson
I am really sorry if I have offended you. But I just want to clarify if ICS will or will not tolerate ASRock's default settings.

When I noticed this setting, I asked ASRock if the setting was wrong, they replied that it was not a mistake but a specification and that the warranty is valid for both the motherboard and the processor. This is despite the fact that they do not offer a warranty on the processor as you stated. I find this unacceptable.

Even if I get an answer from ICS that Intel will not tolerate ASRock's configuration, it will not change ASRock's behavior. Still, the answer should guide us in our choice of motherboards.

I am a DIY user and sometimes overclocking, but I believe in the principle of taking full responsibility for it all myself. I believe that Intel has enabled TjMAX and overclocking settings for me because they trusted DIY users to take responsibility for their own actions. So I would never condone any behavior that would betray that.

Again, I apologize for any offense I may have caused you.
It has been an honor to have your input on this thread.
Thank you so much.

Re: TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

n_scott_pearson — Tue, 29 Nov 2022 22:00:50 GMT

You haven't offended me at all. You want an official Intel answer, so be it (but you did read Andrew's response above, right?).

Tag, you're it @AndrewG_Intel...

...S

Re: TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

dougaMAT — Tue, 29 Nov 2022 22:34:05 GMT

I am very relieved. I can't understand the nuance in any way through the translation site.
I'm sorry for all the help, but please let me know if there are any mistakes.

Of course, I saw @AndrewG_Intel's answer. So, I have confirmed that an end user changing the TjMAX in the same way as ASRock would void the warranty as it would constitute overclocking.

However, I could not tell if the TjMAX = 115°C setting is inappropriate for the Core i9-13900K, since the document describing the temperature limit for the Core i9-13900K is still in production. I also wanted to know if ASRock's default setting, which is reflected regardless of the end user's will, is considered a change in TjMAX.

Therefore, I asked whether or not ASRock's default setting is considered a TjMAX change, as well as confirming that processor temperature limit = TCC Activation = TjMAX on the Core i7-12700K, for which a datasheet is already available.

As for the other questions, I too think TjMAX should be the same as TCC Activation, and I do not believe that Intel allowed ASRock to open up TjMAX, but wanted to confirm that these are the same thoughts as ICS.