Appeal for a sticky thread to start a sign list to re-introduce the Array Visualizer in IVF

[tropfen]

Hello Steve,

is it possible to start a sticky thread as a list for people to sign a appeal for re-introduce Array Visualizer in IVF?

This might be a way to show decision makers from intel the wish from the users.

Thanks in advance
Frank

[johnreadey]

Maybe readers of the Visual Fortran forum is not the right audience, but I was wondering if there is anyone looking for AV support for C++/Windows and/or Linux (C or Fortran). It may be easier to get support for AV if there is a broader platform base.

John

[tropfen]

Hello John,

for us the combination of Fortran and Windows is essential.

Frank

[Fons_Brosens]

Hello Steve,

We essentially work like in topic #20 by tropfen.

We use Compaq Visual Fortran CVF6.6 (in Windows XP) for debugging, merely because of the good and intuitive array visualizer. It shows a graph of 1 and 2 dimensional arrays by a simple mouse click, similar as IVF gives a list of numbers. No need for calling extra routines in the program like with the old (and now unsupported) Intel Array Visualizer, as far as I can manage the later one.

Because of its excellent performance, some of us then use IVF 2011.8.278 for production runs.

Roughly speaking, 95% of the human development time is spent with CVF6.6, and 95% of the CPU time is spent in execution time after IVF compilation.

Of course, with 64 bit upcoming, and CVF not being supported anymore, we would very much like to step over to IVF, and we shall do so without any doubt as soon as a good Array Visualizer becomes available.

[sabalan]

I wrote here 2 years ago that a compiler without AV is not an option for me. But now I had to, I was forced to, finally upgrade from CVF to IVF 2013, and here I am: no way to integrate IAV 3.3 to VS2012 to be able to view the arrays in debug time, despite using all tutorials found on the Internet about this, or uninstall and reinstall the VS integration. There is a button for AV on the toolbar, but deactivated.

[onkelhotte]

Just saw this thread...

I totally miss the Array Visualizer!

I never integrated it in my programs for displaying results, but for debugging reasons. It was very very easy to see numerical problems in arrays because of the coloured display of the values. When one term "faded" away you saw it at once. In a vast list of an array in a debugger it was almost impossible to spot these elements.

Steve, what did the decision makers decide after all?

Markus

[Steven_L_Intel1]

It's still in limbo, but I have managed to get the marketing people express interest in having it return. Not a simple thing, though. I continue to work at it.

[jimdempseyatthecove]

Maybe if some of your marketing people visit their customers that are using Array Visualizer. Not just for debugging but also with application driven graphics. Perhaps then will they grasp the idea that they have this gem laying on the wayside for the prince of Serendip to come along to find it. Alas, marketing people tend not to be users. What is needed then is to demonstrate a demand.

The code you have is perhaps 90% done. Integration into VS for use in debugging is but one aspect of AV and ammounts to most of the missing 10%. Integration into application is already done, I can use it on Windows 7 x64. The documentation on how to install/fix it needs to be provided (or proper installation program updated).

I would like to propose that at some upcoming conference, IDF 2013, that you (Intel) bring together the necessary participants for a productive session:

Marketing people from Intel (decision makers)
Software support engineers from Intel (C++, IFV, others)
Proficient users of AV to demonstrate how they are using AV
Open the session to all those interested in integrating graphics into their applications (as well as disgruntled AV users wishing for reintroduction)

The marketing people need to be sold on the product offering. The purpose of the sesson is to provide marketing with the information they need to make the decision for reintroduction of AV.

I would be willing to prepare a demonstration for a portion of the session. It would be beneficial to find other volunteers proficient in AV to provide additional demonstrations. I also would be willing to work with the other contributors to collate the demonstrations into a complete presentation. April IDF 2013 Beijing, would likely be too soon to do a proper presentation, September IDF 2013 in San Francisco could work out.

For those users of AV (past and present) interested in providing demonstration material, please speak up.

Jim Dempsey

[Steven_L_Intel1]

Thanks, Jim. Our marketing folks are in favor of it, but they don't make the decision. Still, it is an important step for them to have included AV in the list of desired features for future versions.

[jimdempseyatthecove]

Thanks Steve,

Let me propose an expanding circular argument:

T = Pentium 4
Loop:
Intel needs compiler to demonstrate superiority of its implementation (to push HW sales)
Intel acquires compiler vendor SW development teams and/or improves compilers it has
SW now fully supports instruction set
Sales increase
Next generation HW (T = T+1)
GOTO Loop

The above was the original model management use to justify acquiring a SW department.

Now, there are additional SW vendors supplying compilers that are good at vectorization (not necessarily as good as Intel's nor as soon as Intel's). While I do not have the figures, I imagine a goodly portion of the SW market is using non-Intel compilers. I would like to argue that by increasing the Intel portion of the SW market, you attain a larger market share having compilers that fully supports most recent generation of hardware. This has an influencing effect to accelerate HW purchases.

By this reasoning, by increasing compiler market share, you accelerate and expand HW purchases. There are many factors that influence choice of compilers, outside of reliability, two of which are performance and programmer productivity features. The performance advantage is waining for those users willing to accepting time lag for their (open source) compiler to catch up. Adding programmer productivity features is an area that is more difficult for others to enter. Therefor:

more features == more SW users
more SW users == more/earlier HW purchases

Those are my arguing points.

Jim Dempsey

[tropfen]

Hello,

it would be perfect. Any working Array Viewer is better then having none. We can talk about inprovements later on.

Frank

[sumitm]

Please add me to the list. However I need the CVF version of Array Visualizer and not the IAV for developing applications that show the array grid and the 3D plot with visible axis labels (IAV does not) . So those Active X controls for data grid and 3D plot will help me make more polished applications. Right now I have bypassed it by doing the same thing in Opengl but it is not the same quality

Thanks

Sumit

[tropfen]

Hello Steve,

is there any change or movement in the Intel strategy about the arry viewer currently?

Frank

[Steven_L_Intel1]

No, sorry. It continues to be mentioned but I have not seen any change in direction.