2 TB3 devices at the same time on NUC11 Pro?

[optik]

Hello guys! I got my NUC11TNHv5 this week but I'm facing a weird issue with Thunderbolt 3 devices. I have Sabrent TB3 --> M.2 NVMe external enclosure as well as QNAP T310G1S 10GbE NIC but can't manage to get any 2 of those devices working at the same time.

I'm starting to wonder if there is a technical restriction that prevents both ports to run TB3 devices at the same time. With the Sabrent external SSD, the LED is turning on on both devices but only the 1st one plugged in is detected is Windows.

I'm running WindowsToGo (Win10) from a USB drive at the moment but my goal is to install VMware ESXi 7.0 on the NUC. I was using Windows to update everything before setting up ESXi when I noticed the issue.

When running Ubuntu 22.04, I get a slightly different behaviour: the QNAP NIC is working only when plugged in the 1st TB port. When plugged in the 2nd TB port, it's partially detected but the network adapter is never added. There could be a power limitation because it seems the 1st port is 15W but the 2nd one is only 7.5W.

Also, running the command "dmesg" shows that the second TB device I plug is always detected as a USB device instead of a TB device. That explains why it doesn't work because both devices are TB only (no USB-C fallback).

The BIOS and firmwares at freshly updated (version 0062 released on 12/3/2021). I have an internal M.2 SSD as well as a SATA SSD plugged in at the same time. I'll try to unplug the M.2 SSD to test if there is some PCIe lanes contention.

Is anyone able to run 2 TB3 devices at the same time on NUC11 Pro?

Any clues on what to look for or something to try?

Thank you for your help!

[Alberto_R_Intel]

optik, Thank you for posting in the Intel® Communities Support.

In reference to your question, according to the information in the link below under the tab "What is Thunderbolt™ 3?" states:  

"Thunderbolt I/O technology lets you move data between your devices and your computer with 2 channels of 10Gbps flowing both ways (upstream and downstream) at the same time. And it allows you to connect as many as 6 devices, daisy chained, through a single compact port.":

https://www.thunderbolttechnology.net/tech/faq

I looked in the TPS (Technical Product Specification) of the Intel® NUC 11 Pro Kit NUC11TNHv5 as well, page 15:

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/support/us/en/documents/intel-nuc/NUC11TN_TechProdSpec.pdf

But I was not able to confirm, as you mentioned, if you can directly connect 2 devices, such as Sabrent TB3 M.2 NVMe external enclosure and QNAP T310G1S 10GbE NIC, on each of the Thunderbolt ports without the components being daisy chained or if there is a restriction about that configuration.

I will do further research on this matter, as soon as I get any updates, I will post all the details on this thread.

Any questions, please let me know.

Regards,

Albert R.

Intel Customer Support Technician

[optik]

Hello Alberto,

Thanks for your reply. Seems like you modified your answer because I first got an email requesting a SSU report. There it is.

The QNAP NIC is plugged in the 1st TB port and the Sabrent TB3-->NVMe is plugged in the 2nd TB port (it doesn't appear at all but the LED is on the drive).

I have a WindowsToGo as well as a Ubuntu 22.04 USB drives so it's easy for me to test on both OS. Let me know if you would like the Linux dmesg logs showing that the 2nd TB3 device is recognized as USB.

Thank you

[Alberto_R_Intel]

Hello optik, Thank you very much for providing that information and the SSU report.

While we are still working on this scenario, we just wanted to confirm:

You mentioned there are drives that are currently installed on the SATA and M.2, are those the Samsung SSD 870 EVO 2TB and Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 500GB?

The power consumption details for the QNAP T310G1S 10GbE NIC are missing from the QNAP support website. If the system is not properly working when connected to the TB2 but working when connected to the TB1 this may be related to the power the system needs and the power TB2 delivers.

As per the Sabrent TB3 - M.2 NVMe external enclosure website, this needs additional power for proper functionality. Not being detected by the Intel® NUC may be related to this fact or to the drivers needed. Based on that we just wanted to verify, are you working with additional power for that device or using the power delivered by the TB port?  

Regards,

Albert R.

Intel Customer Support Technician

[optik]

Hello Alberto,

Yes, the Samsung SSD you mentionned are connected on the internal M.2 and SATA ports.

The QNAP NIC is working on TB2 on Windows but not on Linux. It’s weird but I also think it’s related to the power limitation of TB2.

The Sabrent M.2 enclosure works fine on both TB1 and TB2, but not when there is 2 TB devices plugged at the same time. The power requirement seems to be lower than the QNAP NIC.

Both devices are powered exclusively through the TB port (no external power supplies or docking)

The best scenario would be to plug the QNAP NIC in TB1 and the Sabrent enclosure on TB2.

Is there anything else I can do to help you troubleshoot the issue?

Thank you!

[optik]

This is the exact enclosure I use: http://sabrent.com/products/ec-t3ns

It works fine,  just not while another Thunderbolt 3 device is plugged in (another Sabrent enclosure with Samsung SSD) or the QNAP NIC.

Thank you!

[Alberto_R_Intel]

Hello optik, Thank you very much for confirming those details.

We will continue with our research on this matter, if by any chance there is more information needed, we will let you know on this forum. As soon as I get any updates, I will post all the information on this thread.

Regards,

Albert R.

Intel Customer Support Technician

[n_scott_pearson]

As you saw, only one of the ports will receive 15W (5V/3A). My understanding is that the other port will receive only 4.5W (5V/900mA).

Sorry,

...S

[Alberto_R_Intel]

Hello optik, I just received an update on this matter.

Since both ports are working with different devices this may be related to the power delivery by the TB (15W and 7.5W) so what we recommend is to check with Sabrent Support about the power consumption since this info is not public on their website:

http://sabrent.com/pages/support#CustomerSupport__Contact

About the QNAP T310G1S 10GbE NIC not working with Linux, according to the QNAP website, some drivers are needed and are not provided by us so the next thing to do will be to contact them directly: "Linux: Supports Linux core 3.10, 3.12, 3.2, 4.2, and 4.4. The driver for the Marvell AQtion AQC100; Aquantia® is required to use the QNA-T310G1S."

https://www.qnap.com/en/product/qna-t310g1s

Regards,

Albert R.

Intel Customer Support Technician

[optik]

Hi Alberto,

Sorry if I wasn't clear but the QNAP NIC is working on Linux. I had problem when plugging it in TB2 port but it always works well in TB1.

Regarding the Sabrent NVMe enclosure, it's working fine on both ports.

The only issue is when I have 2 Thunderbolt 3 devices plugged in at the same time. When I do that, the 2nd device I plug doesn't work.

This is telling me the issue isn't related to power consumption if I plug the QNAP in TB1 and the Sabrent in TB2, power wise, it should work because they work independently.

I tried to remove the internal Samsung 970 Evo Plus plugged in the M.2 port. I wanted to validate if the problem could be related to PCIe lanes contention. Unfortunately, I have the exact same behaviour --> the 2nd device I plug is recognized as a USB device instead of a Thunderbolt device.

I attached the terminal output from Ubuntu 22.04. I added comment about my action using "echo" so it's easier to understand what happen between my "dmesg" runs.

Hope that helps you understand what's going on.

On your side, are you able to plug 2 Thunderbolt-only devices at the same time? By Thunderbolt-only I mean that the device doesn't fallback to USB if Thunderbolt isn't available.

Thank you!

[Opcod34]

As mention previously by n_scott, nuc11 is also running with only 1 tb controller, with a y going on 2 port. So full speed and port will be on 1 unit, not 2 at same time. Just go with those new tb hub of 4 port as it got an external power or simply plug your m2 drive on an egpu enclosure with external power and some unit have 2 port to daisy-chain on the new 7440 gen chip.

[optik]

Thanks for your reply! N_scott only mentionned the power output difference between both ports. Where did you find the informations about the single TB controller? The official technical documentation states that the first port is TB4/USB4 while the second port is TB3. How could that be possible with a « y » splitter?

[Alberto_R_Intel]

optik, Thank you very much for sharing those aspects.

We will continue with our research on this matter. As soon I get more information I will post all the updates on this thread.

Regards,

Albert R.

Intel Customer Support Technician

[Ronny_G_Intel]

Hi @optik,

I can only think that this is a power related issue.

Do you know what is the power required for the QNAP T310G1S 10GbE NIC and for the Sabrent enclosure with Samsung SSD?

I would also recommend that you check our Compatibility Tool before deploying ESXi* 

https://compatibleproducts.intel.com/ProductDetails?prodSearch=True&searchTerm=nUC11TNHv5#

Regards,

Ronny G

[optik]

Hi Ronny,

I contacted both Sabrent and QNAP to confirm the power requirements. I found on the Samsung website that the 970 Evo Plus 500GB consumes about 5.8W. Let’s wait for the enclosure requirements.

Regarding ESXi, I know it’s not an officially supported configuration but it’s still a fairly common homelab setup according to a well known VMware employee’s blog: https://williamlam.com/2021/01/esxi-on-11th-gen-intel-nuc-panther-canyon-tiger-canyon.html

Thank you for your reply!

[Alberto_R_Intel]

Hello optik, You are very welcome, I just received an update on this matter.

Just to let you know, at this point, we are waiting for the enclosure's power consumption to be added to the 5.8W and the Network Adapter to check if the power needs vs power delivery from the TBs can be impacting the performance.

As soon as we have more details, we will post all of them on this thread.

Regards,

Albert R.

Intel Customer Support Technician

[optik]

Hi,

I confirmed that the QNAP NIC requires 15W (5V at 3A) but I’m still waiting on Sabrent regarding the consumption of the Sabrent NVMe enclosure.

If the power output is maxed out on both TB3 ports, would that cause the 2nd device to be recognized as USB instead of Thunderbolt? I’m still having a hard time understanding that behaviour and the link it could have with the power consumptions of the devices.

Thank you!

[Alberto_R_Intel]

Hi optik, Thank you very much for sharing those updates.

In regards to your question, I will confirm those details and provide the response on this thread as soon as possible.

Regards,

Albert R.

Intel Customer Support Technician

[Ronny_G_Intel]

Hi optik,

Assuming that the Sabrent TB3 enclosure with the Samsung 970 Evo Plus 500GB requires 5.8W and that the QNAP T310G1S 10GbE NIC requires 15W, this configuration should be supported. We are trying to replicate but first, we need to locate similar devices, this may take some time.

In parallel, can you please try the following? See below:

• Did you test with a regular version of Windows 10? I see Windows 10 pro in the SSU log file but you mentioned that you are using WindowsToGo and I am afraid that this OS version may have significant differences from Windows 10.
• Ensure that the TBT driver [https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/download/714224/html] and Type-C Power delivery drivers are installed [https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/download/19710/html].
• Try to disconnect both devices and connect the 15W device first, then connect the 7.5W device to another port. Our TBT controller allocates power on a first-come-first-serve basis, so the first connected device will receive 5V @ 3A power delivery, while the second one 5V @ 1.5A.

Regards,

Ronny G

[optik]

Thanks Ronny for the detailled response. I’ll try the suggested drivers on a regular Win10 installation and report back.

[optik]

Hello,

So, I did a regular Win10 Pro installation on the 970 Evo Plus internal SSD, installed the 2 drivers you specified and ran Intel DSA and Windows Update until I was fully up-to-date. Unfortunately, I still have the same issue: the 2nd TB3 I plug isn't recognized. As stated, I plugged the QNAP NIC first in the 1st TB port. I then plugged the Sabrent SSD enclosure in the 2nd TB port. The SSU file I attached was done with both devices plugged in.

Is the power allocation based on the TB port or can the 2nd TB port output 15W if it's the first one to connect to a device?

I think that the Linux behaviour of detecting the 2nd device as USB is really interesting. I can easily provide you with additionnal logs if you need.

Thank you!