Community
cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 
PLuci
Beginner
2,240 Views

NUC7i5BNH CPU package C-States/SpeedShift - UEFI Legacy boot issues

Hi all,

l got a NUC7i5BNH from a couple of months which does not work as expected, I'll try to make it clear to understand and reproduce.

My previous NUC was a Skylake one, so starting with the new Kaby Lake unit I soon noticed it couldn't reach CPU package C-States lower than C2 in Windows 10 when CPU is idle and the display is powered on:

this produces higher temperatures, higher power consumption and higher noise than expected (and necessary), so I started investigating from BIOS configuration.

After some testing, and with my great surprise, I found that "Legacy boot" option disabled was the culprit for this behaviour.

Premises:

- Unit is NUC7i5BNH equipped with 2x16GB RAM Crucial CT2K16G4SFD8213 and M.2 2280 AHCI SSD Crucial CT500MX200SSD4 MX200

- Operating system used for testing is always an UEFI clean install of Windows 10 x64 1803 up to date (latest build 17134.12) with no crap/trash, just a clean system for testing purpose

- Drivers are up to date as per NUC7i5BNH Intel support page

- UEFI firmware is up to date (BNKBL357.86A Version 0065 6/6/2018)

- BIOS was always flashed via jumper recovery (F9 default settings loaded after power off and power chord uplug)

 

- NUC is connected to a DELL display via HDMI port or to a Samsung Smart TV via HDMI port (both display are full HD resolution 1920x1080), with same results

- Monitoring software used is HWInfo via its sensors interface

Better issue description:

BIOS default settings enable both "UEFI boot" and "Legacy boot":

with this configuration, when CPU is idle C-States work as expected and CPU can reach package C8 with the display active, using both "Balanced"* and "Power Saver" Windows 10 plans (* to get C8 with "Balanced" powerplan may be necessary to enable AHCI Link power management (via Windows registry) and changing the value in power settings gui to "HIPM+DIPM" or "Lowest").

When display goes off due to power saving timer, CPU can reach lower C-States (C9 and C10)

This is the expected (per Intel docs) behaviour, so power comsumption, heat and temperatures get benefits when there is no load.

If "Legacy boot" option is disabled, when CPU is idle can reach only package C2 state if the display is active.

When display goes off due to power saving timer, CPU can now reach package C8 and lower (do note that if you just unplug HDMI cable or manually power off the display via power button, CPU still remains in C2).

This is not the expected behaviour, because system cannot get advantage of its lovely built-in power saving features.

I am an IT-Pro guy and a passionate user, so I tried to find a solution by myself but no luck:

- I tried changing any related or unrelated bios setting in every crazy combination possible without any effect, you need "Legacy boot" enabled

- I tried any available graphic driver for this unit and also generic non-NUC from Iris Plus 640 page (newer tried was Version: 24.20.100.6136), no difference

- I tried tuning every Windows power setting - also advanced hidden ones - in every power plan, but no difference

- I tried also (just for fun) loading Windows 10 from USB drive with no other drive connected to the unit, no difference

Do note the same thing happened on previous BIOS version I went through before last revision (0062, 0063, 0064), so downgrade to that revisions is useless.

Do also note that any recent Linux distribution I tried (Kernel from 4.15 up to 4.17) do not suffer this problem:

also without loading firmware blobs on boot, CPU can reach lower package C-States - as Intel Powertop reports - just as expected also when "Legacy boot" option is disabled in BIOS and the display is active (may be necessary tuning some options to enable all power saving features, but it is expected and works fine).

Paradox here is Windows 10 is the only supported operating system by Intel for this NUC and - as per following Intel recommendations - should be installed only in UEFI mode to avoid issues.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000005628/mini-pcs.html Supported Operating Systems for Intel® NUC Products - "UEFI Boot is required to install Windows 10 - this is set by default in BIOS Setup. Using Legacy Boot results in multiple errors in Device Manager."

Some thoughts:

I think it is clearly a bug, it shows itself only in Windows 10 but I do not think Windows 10 is the culprit itself:

as reported, leaving "Legacy boot" option enabled everything works as expected, so I suppose this problem is bios related but obviously I can be wrong (as I never thought that such option could have such impact on power saving features).

UEFI and legacy boot initialize hardware in different ways and some of the features involved in power saving options are based on firmware blobs, anyway this is out of my control and I just don't have any other idea on how to try fixing it, so I hope someone can "pass the ball" to the right team and investigate about this issue, which could be present on other Kaby Lake NUCs as well.

To me and - I suppose - to the largest part of owners and/or potential owners - leaving "Legacy boot" option enabled is not an actual solution nor an option because:

- it prevents booting via UEFI PXE and micro sd slot (due to PCIe interface)

- it prevents (or may prevent) booting from NVME PCIe SSD, and if you disable it you'll loose idle power saving features

- if "secure boot" is needed and so enabled, "Legacy boot" is consequently disabled and you'll loose idle power saving features

- power saving features like CPU Package C-States and Speed Shift are really important arguments of choice when buying these units and should work as expected at least in the only OS supported by Intel

Steps to reproduce:

To get Idle C-States NOT working with display active:

- In VisualBIOS, load BIOS default settings with F9 and disable "Legacy boot", save with F10 and confirm.

- Boot Windows 10 and monitor CPU C-States with HWInfo (or any other similar software): C2 will be maximum package C-State reached in idle with every power plan when the display is active.

To get Idle C-States working with display active (the expected behaviour):

- In VisualBIOS, load BIOS default settings with F9, save with F10 and confirm.

- Boot Windows 10, select "Power Saver" powerplan* and monitor CPU C-States with HWInfo (or any other similar software): C8 will ...

0 Kudos
20 Replies
idata
Community Manager
214 Views

Hello PupazzoLuciotto,

 

 

I understand that you are currently experiencing problems with the C-states.

 

 

Regarding this and in order to reproduce/replicate your problem in the best way, I will need you to provide me with the Intel* SSU report. You can do so, by downloading the tool from the link below:

 

 

https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/25293/Intel-System-Support-Utility-for-Windows-?product=91... https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/25293/Intel-System-Support-Utility-for-Windows-?product=91...

 

 

After created, please attach the report to this thread.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

David V
PLuci
Beginner
214 Views

Hi David,

thanks for your support, I attached 2 SSU reports:

- one with default bios settings

- one with default bios settings and legacy boot disabled.

Kind regards,

M

idata
Community Manager
214 Views

Hello PupazzoLuciotto,

 

 

Thank you for your response.

 

 

I will proceed to try to replicate the problem so that we can have a better insight as to what could be causing this behavior, thank you for taking the time to provide me with the details. Please allow me sometime, I will reply as soon as I am done with the testing.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

David V
idata
Community Manager
214 Views

Hello PupazzoLuciotto,

 

 

Thank you for your patience.

 

 

I apologize for taking time to replicate this issue. We are still investigating about this and will be getting back to you soon. Please allow us some more time.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

David V
idata
Community Manager
214 Views

Hello PupazzoLuciotto,

 

 

Thank you for your patience.

 

 

I have been doing some testing and in fact there has been no problem when leaving the legacy boot enabled, I have not yet finished with the replication, however, the legacy boot is not interfering with any process so I would like to start by asking, is there a particular reason why you are disabling the legacy boot from the system?

 

 

Also, some other questions I have before continuing are:

 

 

1 - Why do you need a lower C-state?

 

2 - Which specific C-state are you looking to get?

 

3 - Please provide me with screenshots of the HWinfo when legacy boot is enabled.

 

 

Please provide me with that information so I can continue with this investigation.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

David V
PLuci
Beginner
214 Views

Hi David,

as I wrote on first post, leaving legacy boot enabled is not a solution and, in my case, nor an option because:

- if you enable secure boot, legacy boot is automatically disabled

- if you leave legacy boot enabled (you also have to disable secure boot), you cannot boot from uefi lan (just legacy)

- if you leave legacy boot enabled (you also have to disable secure boot), you cannot boot from pcie micro sd card reader

- if legacy boot is not needed (as in my case) it is better disabled: it is just a compatibility layer that should be enabled just when needed

- I don't need legacy boot, but I need UEFI lan boot, sd card boot and lower package c-states

To the other questions:

1. I need lower package c-states because:

- my cpu is designed to get those states, it's a built-in feature that I paid for and I care about power saving

- lower package c-states are supposed to work with or without legacy boot enabled

- in lower package c-states, cpu drains less power, generates less heat and produces lower temperatures

- in a small machine like a NUC, lower package c-states are essential

2. I need to get package c-states lower than C2 when legacy boot is disabled, that means I need to get my CPU working as it should

3. I attached requested screenshot: as you can see, if lagacy boot is enabled CPU can reach package c-states lower than C2.

If you disable legacy boot, CPU will not go below C2: this is not expected and it should be addressed.

Thanks for your effort on this,

M.

idata
Community Manager
214 Views

Hello PupazzoLuciotto,

 

 

Thank you for your response.

 

 

We are currently reviewing the information and we are going to proceed with the testings accordingly. We will take some time, please allow us some time and we will be getting back to you as soon as possible.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

David V
idata
Community Manager
214 Views

Hello PupazzoLuciotto,

 

 

Thank you for your patience.

 

 

I have been checking the information and I was able to find a newer BIOS version that could address your problem. Please try to download and install the version 0066:

 

 

https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/28013/BIOS-Update-BNKBL357-86A-?product=95067 https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/28013/BIOS-Update-BNKBL357-86A-?product=95067

 

 

When downloaded, please update the BIOS and check to see if the C-State problem persists.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

David V
PLuci
Beginner
214 Views

I already installed last bios few days ago, it definetely does not address THE UNIT's problem (not MY problem) I reported.

idata
Community Manager
214 Views

Hello PupazzoLuciotto,

 

 

Thank you for your response.

 

 

I will be running some tests from our side to see if the issue is present with our configuration. Please allow me some time, in the meantime, I sent you a private message with some information we require as well for further investigation.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

David V
Chris_V_Intel
Moderator
214 Views

Thanks for letting us know about this PupazzoLuciotto.

We have reproduced this issue and are working on a fix.

PLuci
Beginner
214 Views

Thanks for that.

I think you should also address performance issues with latest nvme drives and fix their hardware encryption not yet working:

from what I know you are already aware of these issues, anyway I can open a separate thread if useful.

Thanks again and best regards,

M

Chris_V_Intel
Moderator
214 Views

If you're referring to Samsung's eDrive, yes I already have a bug report open and we're working on that as well.

PLuci
Beginner
214 Views

Yes, Im referring specifically to 970 EVO 512GB NVME and Im glad to hear you're working on that as well.

I report my experience just in case it can be useful:

in my testing with 970 EVO, I found severe performance issues on this NUC compared to a 10 years old Core2Duo E8500 based pc with 8GB of ram (PCIe adapter) and a more recent i5-4590 based pc with 16 GB of ram.

Also with another NVME drive (Samsung SM951) and an AHCI M.2 drive (Crucial MX200), performance on this NUC are still worse than my older NUC6i3SYH unit.

My tests involved benchmarks like CrystalDiskMark and ATTO as well as, mostly, real life work with virtualization software (some "semi-production" VMs running) and other multitasking jobs.

On the eDrive side on NVME, things are even worse:

- you can't secure erase the drive in this unit, so you can't enable eDrive feature (to enable hardware encryption with BitLocker lately)

- if you secure erase the drive and enable eDrive with Samsung Magician software in a different computer, you won't be able to use the eDrive feature lately in this nuc:

Bitlocker will always offer you only software encryption for the "Windows" partition.

In addiction, if you enable hardware encryption on a "data" partition,

the drive won't be recognized at all during post.

Samsung said other Manufacturers have to update their mainboard's bios to have eDrive feature working, from what I've read some notebooks from Lenovo and others have no issues enabling it.

Thanks again for working on these issues, fixes are really necessary and I hope they're get released soon.

Best regards,

M

Chris_V_Intel
Moderator
214 Views

Sorry for the belated reply, been out sick.

Just to check, I also tested a 970 EVO on both a NUC6i3SYK and and NUC7i5BNK (same board as yours, different chassis).

My results.

PLuci
Beginner
214 Views

Hi cvare,

unfortunately I never tested the 970 evo on NUC6i3, but only on NUC7i5 unit and other 2 pc I own.

This is the CDM of my "old" i5-4590 with 16 GB ram pc, as you can see every random value is strongly better compared to NUC7i5 unit:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

CrystalDiskMark 6.0.1 x64 (C) 2007-2018 hiyohiyo

Crystal Dew World : https://crystalmark.info/

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

* MB/s = 1,000,000 bytes/s [SATA/600 = 600,000,000 bytes/s]

* KB = 1000 bytes, KiB = 1024 bytes

Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) : 3294.247 MB/s

Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) : 2499.697 MB/s

Random Read 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 8) : 1045.053 MB/s [ 255139.9 IOPS]

Random Write 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 8) : 1694.842 MB/s [ 413779.8 IOPS]

Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 584.942 MB/s [ 142808.1 IOPS]

Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 526.947 MB/s [ 128649.2 IOPS]

Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 52.748 MB/s [ 12877.9 IOPS]

Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 224.293 MB/s [ 54759.0 IOPS]

Test : 1024 MiB [F: 0.0% (0.2/465.8 GiB)] (x1) [Interval=5 sec]

Date : 2018/07/13 5:36:01

OS : Windows 10 Professional [10.0 Build 17134] (x64)

Cannot find a NUC7i5 CDM right now, but my results were similar to yours except for sequential read and write:

mine were as high as with i5-4590 pc but I own the 970 EVO 500GB model, I suppose you tested a 250GB one.

Kind regards,

M

Chris_V_Intel
Moderator
214 Views

Interesting.

I was more looking to see what I could find when you said: "Also with another NVME drive (Samsung SM951) and an AHCI M.2 drive (Crucial MX200), performance on this NUC are still worse than my older NUC6i3SYH unit."

Do you have the CDM for the SM951 in the NUC6 unit?

Just curious.

idata
Community Manager
214 Views

Hello PupazzoLuciotto,

 

 

Thank you for your patience.

 

 

I would like to inform you that there has been a BIOS update released that addresses the C-state problem. The version is the following:

 

 

https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/28178/?product=95067 https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/28178/?product=95067

 

 

 

Regards,

 

David V

 

 

Intel Customer Support Technician

 

Under Contract to Intel Corporation
PLuci
Beginner
214 Views

Hi,

I tested that bios revision and I can confirm C-states are finally working as expected, at least on my unit.

On the other side, what about NVME eDrive feature and NVME performance on this unit?

I see there's a newer bios available for this unit and I will install it as soon as possibile, as I always do:

anyway, there are no mentions about them, so I suppose they're still not solved, am I wrong?

Thanks and best regards,

M