Max V 5M80ZE64C5N examine / Verify Failure

[TN-Notebooks]

Hardware 

Synology Board with 5M80ZE64C5N 

PL-USB Blaster RCN  Rev C

Software 

Win 10 

Programmer Standalone Quartus Prime  17.1.1-593 

( all Versions above have a Bug with File save after eamine )

Device selected 5M80ZE64

selectable  Boxes ( dark grey ) : Blank check - examine - erase

not selectable  Boxes ( light grey ) : Programm - verify - security Bit - ISP Clamp

( exactly same on Brand new chip  )

Examine successful 100%

File saved 

USM and CFM appear

Verify USM pass

Verify  CFM Fail

Message  : 

209048 verfy failure on devive number 1

209012 Operation failed

what am i doing wrong ?

[WZ2]

Hi there,

In order to solve your problem, I need to clarify a few points:

1. What is the probability that this problem occurs?

2. Is the board started normally? (whether the logic code is started)

Best regards,

WZ

[TN-Notebooks]

"1. What is the probability that this problem occurs?"

at 100 % at every try

"2. Is the board started normally? (whether the logic code is started)"

Its confirmed on several normal working Boards 

[WZ2]

It maybe a known bug in Intel® Quartus® Prime Standard Edition software version 20.1 and earlier, however this bug will not caused 100% failed. Anyway, I still suggest to upgrade your quartus and verify again.

Best regards,

WZ

[TN-Notebooks]

Hallo,

i had the actual Version 22 but i had to Downgrade to 17.1 because from 18.1 and up there is a other known bug ( examined Files not possible to save )

see

https://community.intel.com/t5/Intel-Quartus-Prime-Software/saving-the-examined-data-of-Max-V-failed-in-the-Intel-Quartus/m-p/1513583/emcs_t/S2h8ZW1haWx8dG9waWNfc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9ufExMOEM0NFYxWjA0OFpTfDE1MTM1ODN8U1VCU0NSSVBUSU9OU3xoSw#M79668

and 

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/programmable/articles/000094118.html

[WZ2]

Sorry for the late reply due to the holiday. This problem is indeed more troublesome. Do you want to verify the consistency of the content in the flash and the content in the cram when you do verify? What is the reason for doing the examine?

Knowing your purpose, I might be able to give better advice~

Best regards,

WZ

[TN-Notebooks]

The Reason for Examine is that i need Clones of the   Max V  5M80ZE64C5N

I repair specific Mainboards on Chiplevel and sometimes the Max V is blown for example due to a Short circuit on Board

The Manufacturer of the Boards do not support the original Files so that i can not program on a normal way the new Max V 

I need to readout at a donor unit the  Flash - the Protection Bit is not set.

I do not need to change anything and do not want to programm anything - i just need clones.

[WZ2]

Hi there,

I see the reason. You don’t wanna use ASMI ip or anything, the examine is the simplest way to do such thing. I try DK-DEV-5M570ZN and quartus 20.4 and there is no error. Could u try to do the examine?

Best regards,

WZ

[TN-Notebooks]

Hallo

Same Failure / Behavior with 20.4  see Screenshoot

Info(209060): Started Programmer operation at Fri Sep 1 13:26:23 2023
Info(209017): Device 1 contains JTAG ID code 0x020A50DD
Info(209018): Device 1 silicon ID is ALTERA10-1
Info(209038): Examining devices
Info(209011): Successfully performed operation(s)
Info(209061): Ended Programmer operation at Fri Sep 1 13:26:24 2023
Info(209060): Started Programmer operation at Fri Sep 1 13:27:24 2023
Info(209017): Device 1 contains JTAG ID code 0x020A50DD
Info(209018): Device 1 silicon ID is ALTERA10-1
Info(209021): Performing verification on device(s)
Info(209011): Successfully performed operation(s)
Info(209061): Ended Programmer operation at Fri Sep 1 13:27:25 2023
Info(209060): Started Programmer operation at Fri Sep 1 13:27:29 2023
Info(209017): Device 1 contains JTAG ID code 0x020A50DD
Info(209018): Device 1 silicon ID is ALTERA10-1
Info(209021): Performing verification on device(s)
Error(209048): Verify failure on device number 1
Error(209012): Operation failed
Info(209061): Ended Programmer operation at Fri Sep 1 13:27:30 2023

[WZ2]

Hi there,

I see that you run the EXAMINE successfully, but the verify fails. Is the file generated after you run examine consistent with the original file? If they are consistent, please try to verify again after the examine. At the same time, please remember to check the “Enable realtime ISP to allow….” option.

Best regards,

WZ

[TN-Notebooks]

I do not have the Original File  - thats the Reason why i use Examine

see my Post

@TN-Notebooks wrote:

The Reason for Examine is that i need Clones of the   Max V  5M80ZE64C5N

I repair specific Mainboards on Chiplevel and sometimes the Max V is blown for example due to a Short circuit on Board

The Manufacturer of the Boards do not support the original Files so that i can not program on a normal way the new Max V 

I need to readout at a donor unit the  Flash - the Protection Bit is not set.

I do not need to change anything and do not want to programm anything - i just need clones.

---

Same behavior with  “Enable realtime ISP to allow….” option.

If i programm the Examined Files to a new chip  - the Unit do not work.  The Files are corrupted.

Verify tells the Truth with the Message "Failed"

[WZ2]

Hi there,

Sorry, I missed the previous information. Usually, the file from the exam is the file in the cfm, which I have verified on our demo board. I don't understand why the file you examined is wrong. I'm not sure if the manufacturer has done some special operations. Could you please send me the file you examined? I'll try to check it.

Best regards,

WZ

[TN-Notebooks]

Here are some Files from the Readout attached

used the  23.2 Version

[WZ2]

Hi there,

I spent some time analyzing your sof. It was found that the part of cfm was corrupted. The reason for this phenomenon may be that some of the flash of the device is damaged, so that all reads are zero (this is usually impossible). Or whether the manufacturer has added some protection methods to the ICB. My final suggestion is to keep nconfig low after powering on, and then do the examination. If the examination still cannot be verified in this way, then you can consider whether it is a hardware failure.

Best regards,

WZ

[TN-Notebooks]

Thanks for the answer

what do you mean by nconfig low ?

I have a heavy workload at the moment and can only look into this phenomenon further later on

I exclude a hardware defect because it is reproducible on several working boards.
One idea would be to put a new empty chip on such a board and program a file.
To check the function of examine on a new chip without any Protections or hidden issues and see what happens after Examine and verify.
Do you have a suitable test file with CFM and UFM for testing that you can send to me ?

[WZ2]

Hi there,

Connecting Nconfig low means pulling the nconfig pin to GND before powering on, so that after powering on, the chip will not load any content in the flash including the ICB setting. We cannot provide a relevant loading file because we do not know the board-level structure. If the manufacturer does not provide an image but provides a schematic, you can compile a very simple project based on the schematic diagram and on-board resources and generate an image.

Best regards,

WZ

[WZ2]

Hi there,

I tried to replicate the manufacturer's behavior, and they enabled the security bit during programming. This is why all the examined POF files turned out to be all 00 (which I found puzzling before). Due to this operation by them, you cannot directly obtain the POF files, so you still need to request the POF file from the manufacturer.

Best regards,

WZ

[TN-Notebooks]

Quartus should show that the security bit has been set ? why doesn't Quartus  do that ?  A Bug ? 
If quartus does not show this how can a user detect it ?

How did you find out now ?

[WZ2]

This is not a bug, but a method that Quartus provides developers to protect their images.

[WZ2]

After setting it, the image cannot be readback by examine. 

[TN-Notebooks]

i know that this function is to protect the image

But 

@WZ2 wrote:

After setting it, the image cannot be readback by examine. 

---

in my File not Gray out and it is selectable !