First, I'm an Intel employee. Thought you should know . In an effort to make this communities site a more useful place and to reduce the amount of repeat questions, we've added a new users guide. You can check it out here:
Even if you're not a new user, take a look ; it may answer some standing questions you have. Also, we're open to suggestions on further topics you'd like to see us cover. Thanks for your support!
Progress is good.
And with regards to TRIM support in a RAID array.........Intel continues to investigate options to increase our products' performance and endurance. Sorry i couldn't give you a meatier answer
Two questions if I may...
1, This guide seems to say that the new driver release does allow TRIM to work in RAID arrays, just as the original documentation. Is this correct?
2. Whats Intels position with respect to System Restore? Every Intel drive that I know of seems to have the same result where TRIM is not working properly, if at all, while System Restore continues to allocate restore points. This is being observed on a pretty much daily basis now and everyone who I ask to do a simple test to prove it, concedes the results are the same.
Simply, if one allows System restore to work normally for a few weeks with the Intel (and other) ssds, the performance can be confirmed to be dropping through a Simple Crystal Disk Score. Then, if they install the Toolbox and manually optimize, it takes a great deal of time, sometimes over an hour. This can only result in the belief that TRIM is not working properly, if at all.
If you then ask them to turn Restore off, Optimize and then take a performance score again, the numbers return to what they should be.
This seems very consistent everywhere... Can u address this?
For your first question, I'll refer you to an announcement made on communities shortly after RST9.6 was released:
"Intel® RST 9.6 supports TRIM in AHCI and pass through modes for RAID. A bug has been submitted to change the string that indicates TRIM is supported on RAID volumes (0, 1, 5, 10)"
Does this clear things up for you? TRIM is NOT supported on RAID volumes 0,1,5, or 10.
I'll have more on your second question soon. Thanks for the input!
First I'm going to need some more details. What drivers are you using? What version of the Intel Toolbox? Can I get some clarification on the process you are using to measure performance before and after? Maybe give me a step by step? Once I have some more information we'll be able to start figuring out what problem you're running into
I dont know what I can give you in addition to what I have provided. Simply put, in all instances that I know of personally and outside the web (11) system restore creates havoc due to its allocation points and TRIM pretty much does nothing. This is obvious when one tries to run the latest vertsion of Toolbox and the Optimizer takes well over an hour to complete.
I have posted other threads here about it and they went unanswered as have other people stating yes, this is occuring. It is very common and the simple test I described above can be done by anyone and to their surprise the end result is the same. TRIM and Optimizer should take a split second and never an hour plus. Only when System Restore is on and left to add up the restore points does this interfere with TRIM and then testing shows it reduces performance significantly. Shutting it down and then waiting for TRIM or optimizing yourself brings it back up.
I, myself have done this on a Acer, 2 Dells and my sons Alienware G72...always the same. Its a common problem and recognized throughout the commuity as you will see many Tweak threads telling you to shut down Sys Restore because of this.
If you go to my site, www.thessdreview.blogspot.com and got to the Optimizing Thread, it is described there in detail when the thread advises to shut down Sys restore.
Flamenko1, I know this does not answer your issue but could I suggest a work around? System restore takes up loads of
valuable space, adds overhead and as you have identified it slows down TRIM.
Why not use system image for backing up, which is included free with Vista/ Windows 7?
Control panel > Backup and restore > Create a system image
It takes around 10 minutes to create an image & 10 minutes to restore the image and the backup can be stored cost effectively on low cost storage.
Creating a system image is also a good option for anyone left stranded without TRIM on G1 drives as it makes it easy to reset performance with hdderase.
Agree totally.... I don't have a problem with my system whatsoever as you can see if you go to my site below. The issue is one that I believe should have been identified long ago and looked into however. I had brought it up here in the past as well as countless other sites and the only response I get is people saying, "Well will you look at that? My System Restore is off from now on"
Some people got very upset with me at first only to later apologize and say yes, in fact, even in their case TRIM cannot be working at all with System Restore enabled.
The way to check is a above and I have always welcomed other to try it and just about everyone who has decided to get involved has offered the same results for their system.
Up until this fine gentlemen above, Intel would not even acknowledge the threads created.
http://www.thessdreview.blogspot.com The SSD Review
Again, I'm going to need a little more information to properly reproduce your problem. I need
-The version of Intel Toolbox you're using
-Your operating system
-The storage drivers you're using (Intel RST? MSAHCI?)
-Your complete system restore settings. How much space do you have allocated? (these options differ based on OS)
-The time it takes your version of Toolbox to run before and after restore points have been enabled.
I understand you're frustrated and that you'd like some verification, but in order for our results to be effective we need a proper baseline for comparison. Thanks!
I apologize but its not a problem I am having but rather, one that I have identified in threads here and elsewhere that seems to be occuring with many.
Actually, I originally made this observation before TRIM was even released because I found it very unusual that my SSDs never suffered the same performance degradation that become a common link with solid state drives. I deduced at that time that, quite possibly, it could have been something related to System Restore and Vista simply because I do not use System Restore.
Once TRIM came into effect I tested my theory to see if it was, in fact System Restore that was slowing systems and tested as I had described only to find out that with System restore on, System Optimizer took a long time which led me to believe that TRIM was not working correctly. I went one step further then and tested the performance scores and learned that with restore on, performance dropped drastically after a few weeks.
Since then, I have helped out countless people and each and every time i ask them to do the same test as I have described above. Each and every time the problem is solved when they turn System restore off.
There are threads everywhere about this and...wait...here is the original unanswered thread from a month or so ago.
I use the most current version of toolbox
Win7 64Bit Ult
Intel but the problem is with MSAHCI as well
Regardless of how restore is set, it creates a problem. It is off for the most part.
Last I sampled the problem, Toolbox took 2 hours to clean the drive and I observed a large performance return.
Can I suggest...simply have Intel engineers do this with ANY Win7 Intell ssd system with any AHCI drivers:
1. Ensure System Restore is on and has been for some time;
2. Do a Crystal Disk Mark score;
3. Use any version of Toolbox and Optimize. Notice how long it takes;
4. Turn off restore
5. Use Optimizer again.
6. Get another Crystal Dew Score.
Now...to confirm all, leave your System Restore off for a week or so and then Optimize (not necessary now) and do another Crystal Score where they will match the last.
Can I ask if you or the engineers have done the test and NOT observed as I describe?
This may help as well:
How about a comprehensive statement on raid 0? What is the performance impact of using different strip sizes and how do different strip sizes impact fragmentation and wear levelling?
What about the G3 drives? Evolution or revolution? Sata 6Gbit/sec? Saturated? ETA?
EDIT: And can you please explain why Superfetch may "ultimately have a negative effect on performance" ?
Thanks in advance.
I'd answer your question, but I'd probably get canned. Sorry.
We've currently started testing the issue you described. I'll let you know if we reproduce your results.
All, I've got a question for you as well. This guide was mentioned here:
However, the guide mentioned that there's "not a lot in there". What do YOU guys want to see? If you compile a list of realistic questions I'll do my best to answer them. Cool?
Here's one question: For those of us running a single Intel SSD off an Intel chipset, what are the advantages of using the Intel RST drivers as opposed to the native Windows drivers? I think the Guide does refer to advantages but doesn't get specific. Thanks.
I would love to see your response to Raid (0 in particular) with the use of SSDs and TRIM. Atm, my understanding it isn't supported, and is what is lacking - would love to see an offical response.
Yes... I would be very interested in this as well as Intel has jumped all over this.
1. It is documented that it is supported;
2. Intel then denies that it is supported;
3. Tests show that there is something going on because on RAID volumes something exactly like TRIM is going on. Performance is being restore very quickly after large deletions;
4. This ONLY works with the latest RST release;
5. Many start accounting for it as effective GC;
6. Dell denies GC abilities in their drive;
Yet...at the end of the day their is something going on with RAID MOUNTED volumes as their performance is returning soon after deletions and the process surprisingly is exactly like TRIM which they first published as working with RAID mounted drives.
Flamenko1, I'm very much interested in your posts here. I've been running an X25-M G2 80GB RAID-1 array since January 2010. The testing, benchmarks and observations you and others provide are invaluable because I don't have time to do it myself. Without any actual measurements, I can only say anecdotally: despite lack of TRIM there has been no noticeable degradation in performance after numerous multi-GB deletions and countless smaller ones. And I'm still on RST 18.104.22.1687.
Scott, I really appreciate your responsiveness and willingness to seek more in-depth content for the SSD Users Guide. As you can see, silence from Intel on TRIM for RAID arrays is a big issue for us. Even if there are competitive reasons for not discussing future support, it would be helpful to at least have some official whitepaper on what to expect as far as performance degradation over time for SSD (G1 and G2) RAID 0, 1 and 5 without TRIM compared to non-RAID with TRIM when using the latest RST drivers on the 3400 series ICH10R.
Thank you and I am going to assume that you have System Restore on in your system correct? Further, I elected to put together http://thessdreview.blogspot.com/2010/05/windows-7-system-restore-and-your-ssd.html an article on my blog that explains things in detail...
http://www.thessdreview.blogspot.com The SSD Review