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idata
Community Manager
3,557 Views

INTEL, Where is our G1 TRIM support? Please answer

Intel,

Will you be providing G1 TRIM support in a future firmware upgrade for your early SSD adopters? Please give a yes or no answer.

Thank you,

Robert

Austin TX

0 Kudos
38 Replies
idata
Community Manager
161 Views

Bump

DZand
Valued Contributor I
161 Views

Do you really expect a "Yes"?

All available sources say, that it is impossible to make the G1 series fit for the Trim support.

idata
Community Manager
161 Views

My goal is to cause a churn and maybe, just maybe, something will be done. What that something is I don't know, but something is better than nothing. Trade in program? Credit for the old drive will go towards the purchase of a newer G2?

idata
Community Manager
161 Views

Rubbish, mate.... If you modify to say: all "other" sources say that Intel will not give Gen. 1 TRIM support, you might be on the right track. But oh my how those few words you have typed wrong can change others perspective of you....

Gen. 1 Intel drives can of course do TRIM as easy as Gen. 2, but then there would be no reason at all for all of those owners to buy gen. 2, and that would hurt revenue, and that all that matters for Intel, nothing more nothing less. To say Gen. 1 X25-M/E cannot do TRIM would be an outright lie, and Intel would hardly like to be caught in an lie within the first 30 seconds of saying it, If they tried a lie to the public they would make pretty sure they could get away with it first, don't you think.....

idata
Community Manager
161 Views

How do you know G1 drives can do TRIM as easily as G2 drives? There could be a valid reason why it can't be done. I haven't looked into that situation, but I'm willing to give Intel the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

idata
Community Manager
161 Views

All you have to do, is to read up on what TRIM is, i suggest taking a trip over to Anandtech... Let me put it this way, there is no way in hell Intel Gen. 1 have ANY limits in hardware that prevent them from passing an ATA command TRIM to properly delete a file and purge LBA, it's absolutely impossible. If you have even the tinyest insight into SSD tech, there is no doubt, no maybee, no if's or but's, that they can do this just as easy as any other drives. All it takes is a firmware to implement it, period.... This is a fact about the same as the Earth is round, and is undisputable... If you lack the knoweledge, find it, if you can't be bothered, find someone who have it you trust, he/her will tell you the same thing.

The fact that Intel has stated that they won't give TRIM to Gen. 1 should have given you a clue a long time ago...

idata
Community Manager
161 Views

My question was and is How do you know G1 drives can do TRIM as easily as G2 drives? Obviously you cannot use the same firmware update, so there is more to it, perhaps more to it than your technically advanced mind knows.

idata
Community Manager
161 Views

And I told you that if you had any idea what TRIM actually is and does, the answer would be pretty obvious.. I also told you to acuire the knoweledge what TRIM is and where to find it. What I wrote is facts, period. Those who don't believe me, lack the knoweledge.. You don't need a "technically advanced mind" to understand this, only the ability to read...

Enjoy the read

idata
Community Manager
161 Views

It fascinates me when people insist they no more than Intell. Intel has categorically stated that they will not be making trim available for gen 1 users. Not only that i believe they are not manufactoring g1s anymone. Now as for how easy it is to do this and that. If you read the reviews, the G1s WITHOUT TRIM perform on par or better than then G2. Now, of course of over time and i mean a long time, the G1s may/will slowly lose performance. But i gurantee 100% that you can't explain how is is that a G1 without trim has equal or better performance than the g2 with TRIM. BTW, I still have a gen1 in my apple and the thing still is performing admirable. And if you need a link i will more than willing to share, but since you researched this you should no this. Face the fact we(gen1s users) helped make a better product in the G2. Now may be if your tone was initally nice and suggested that Intel think about a trade-in program for previous gen1s, just may be it would peak their interest.

You don't cause churn by blasting them in their forum. That's not smart.

idata
Community Manager
161 Views

I just don't understand what Intel think they have to gain by not offering TRIM for G1 drives.

TRIM was on the technology map when G1's were released. At the time there was a widespread perception that this would be applied to G1 drives when it was ready. In fairness Intel did not say it would be applied to G1 drives but equally they did not say it would not be made available. If Intel had made it clear in their technology road map that TRIM would not be available on G1 drives then people would have had the choice.

If TRIM is not technically feasible it would be helpful if Intel could say so. The question has been asked directly on this forum a number of times and it has been ignored.

Most of the other SSD manufacturers have provided TRIM updates for SSD products that came out a long time before Win 7 was officially launched so it's really hard to believe that TRIM cannot be applied to G1 drives. (Especially when you consider that Intel were at the heart of TRIM and Window 7 optimisations for SSD from day one).

Intel has stated how important TRIM is for their G2 drives so why would this not be applicable for G1 drives?

The performance of G1 & G2 are about the same if you take out the degradation issue on a G1 so do Intel really think that people will buy a G2 drive just for TRIM when they have already paid a huge premium for the G1 technology? Of course not…they will stick with their G1 but they will feel disgruntled and short changed.

How does Intel gain from that and what does Intel loose by offering TRIM?

idata
Community Manager
161 Views

It took Intel quite a long time to come out with a firmware update to support TRIM for G2 drives, and even then there was an issue. There are people with G2 drives waiting for a firmware update to support drivers other than the default msahci in Windows 7. There are people with G2 drives waiting for TRIM support for RAID. How long has it been since Intel stopped production of G1 drives?

I don't have insight into what is going on with Intel's research department and how difficult it is to accomplish their goals, but it seems to me they had a difficult time just to get out firmware update for TRIM for G2 drives!

I can understand the frustration of those with G1 drives, but Intel never promised to have TRIM for G1 drives, and buying the first version of new technology often results in compromises.

I seriously doubt threads like this will make Intel suddenly stop research for G2 drives to bring TRIM to obsolete drives. I expect there will be G3 drives sometime in the future and I accept what I got with G2 drives as I know technology advances--and further research will go to drives being made, not obsolete drives.

idata
Community Manager
161 Views

I think the problem is that this was an unexpected and initially expressly denied defect in the extremely expensive G1 drives, a defect for which Intel has taken pretty much no responsibility. So this is not simply a case of "Well, of course G2 will be better than G1--what's the complaint about?" The problem is that G1 is defective and not performing to reported (and implicitly promised) specs, not that G2 is better.

Even if they decided that it just isn't worth it support G1 drives anymore (as far as the firmware or trim are concerned), they still could easily have offered a G1 for G2 exchange or even mere discount program.

But instead they decided to stick us with a clearly and painfully defective product with no remedy whatever. Classy.

I think Intel customers would be very wise to put this in the "Lessons Learned" category, Intel being another "Actually, turns out it's much better business-wise to overpromise and underdeliver and then sell them again" company.

Fortunately, the marketplace will over time make Intel pay for this attitude, but only if people know about it.

idata
Community Manager
161 Views

If your definition of obsolete is as per the biological definition "imperfectly developed or rudimentary in comparison with the corresponding character in other individuals" then yes I could agree that not providing TRIM has indeed made the G1 obsolete.

In any other context to say that the drive is obsolete is not really helpful. If Intel knew they would not provide TRIM for G1 drives they should have stated it at the time but they didn't because it would have hit G1 sales. They did nothing to dispel the reasonable assumption that TRIM would be provided when Win 7 was released to address a degradation to specified performance figures. Instead they released a G2 TRIM compatible drive and left G1 owners high and drive.

No point arguing because Intel are obviously not going to change their mind, but that does not mean that end users do not have a legitimate cause to express misgivings.

I've leant a good lesson from it. Do not be an early technology adopter when it comes to Intel products. You pay a huge premium only to see your product made obsolete by a lack of support. Quite simple really.

idata
Community Manager
161 Views

Redux,

One cannot re-write history. It is a fact that the G1 drives are obsolete and the manufactering process is different between the new G2 drives and the old G1. Fact. OCZ does not offer TRIM on their 1st generation drives and both Intel and OCZ produced their 1st generation drives around the same time. The arguments you put forth though they may seem correct, if taking to its logical conclusion would be mean that Intel should continue to manufactor old CPUS with the same capabilities that they make new CPUs though the architecture is proven different. So Intel should continue invest to make their Duo Core just as good as their iCore7. I think they will not. If you look at their roadmap on ANY of their products at some point in time the architecture changes which means that old products produced with the old architecture will no longer be produced. This how computer technogology evolves. If you buy early, you risk the new capabilties and refinements that usually come shortly. If you buy late, then you end not getting all the new stuff. It's all timing.

Tell me, can you get a 1st GEN G1 today? No. The only thing that is left is probably leftovers.

idata
Community Manager
161 Views

dbm,

Of course the technology marches on, but the problem here is the serious defect in the G1 drives that Intel originally denied and now users are stuck with.

And to repeat, even if (let's suppose for the sake of argument, and probably contrary to fact) it's simply impossible to trim the G1 drives, then, because of the grave performance defect in G1 drives, Intel should have offered a free or reduced cost G1 trade-in program once the G2s became readily available.

idata
Community Manager
161 Views

It is a false assertion to say that the G1 drives are defective. I'm pretty sure Intel would not appeciate that assertion. ALL SSD produced by ALL vendors during the time of the G1 drives do not and still do not have TRIM. That goes for OCZ, Cosaiar, etc. The only drives that have TRIM are their 2nd gen drives. At the initial time craze of SSD's windows 7's was still in beta and TRIM was still being looked at Windows 7. It was only after SSD started becoming popular that Microsoft looked at implementing features in their WIN 7 operating system to support SSDs. The facts stand by what I say because all you have to do is go look at the OCZ 1st gen forum.

Last, there are ways to recover G1 performance very easily.

idata
Community Manager
161 Views

If it's a false assertion, then why did Intel deny the defect initially, and then later admit it and redesign the G2 drives/firmware to avoid it? If this defect--or whatever euphemism you and Intel would prefer--had been honestly revealed by Intel pre-purchase, very few would have bought their drives which cost several times as much as the competition, since few care about amazing "out of the box" performance that necessarily and without warning degrades after the drive is used normally (not filled, just used). The defects of drives costing at the time a fraction as much are, IMHO, rather immaterial--one might expect cheap drives to have cheap capabilities.

And as you may also know, your "easy" way to restore G1 performance involves pretty advanced technical techniques that in addition to requiring one to image and restore the disks every time the fix is applied, (a) often won't execute properly (as with my workstation, e.g.), (b) sometimes brick the drive when they appear to execute properly, and (c) when successful are very temporary.

idata
Community Manager
161 Views

Your augment is flawed. A product should be supported during its service life, not by how it was manufactured. The G1 comes with a three year warranty so if you assume the service life is three years this product is not obsolete for another 2 years.

If you apply your account of obsolete you will soon see that the G2 is also not supported because Intel will be using 25nm. Maybe you will then find you have reason to be not so happy.

Not providing TRIM is just a petty act by Intel.

Edit: and by the way you are correct you cannot rewrite history but you can certainly learn from it.

Steve_Lionel
Black Belt Retired Employee
161 Views

Does the drive do what Intel claimed it does when you bought it? If so, that's Intel's only obligation. There is no obligation to add features to a previously sold model. When you buy a car and the manufacturer puts a bigger engine in the next model year, do you insist they replace the engine in your car?

Yes, many times manufactures do add features through firmware updates to old models, but not always. I have an SSD from another manufacturer which never gets any firmware updates, much less TRIM support. It continues to do what it did when I bought it.

idata
Community Manager
37 Views

I think that's the real point: the drive does not do what it did when we bought it. The performance drops dramatically, unavoidably, and without (at the time) warning with normal use.

Now as to what Intel claimed, I, like 99% of drive purchases, did not scour the legaleze--legally, you may well be right. (I presume you're right, if their license is anything like a software license.) But practically, unless Intel plainly mentioned in their literature that "note that the performance of the Intel X25-M G1 drive will more-or-less permanently plummet after a short period of use", this was in effect very misleading on their part.

No one is complaining that the newer G2 is better than the older G1; G1 users are complaining because their astonishingly pricey drives had a serious, undisclosed, and uncorrected design flaw.

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