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idata
Community Manager
1,488 Views

SSD optimizer finishes in 2 seconds

Hi.

I'm using a 160 Gb G2 ssd with 2HD firmware on Windows 7 64 bit, AHCI. I had some problems with SATA drivers (lenovo update utility installed matrix storage 7.x which doesn't support TRIM) so I installed version 9.6 drivers. But I wanted to run the SSD optimizer (v1.3) to clean up after the old driver, but as soon as it starts it exits after 2 seconds. The result is passed and green, but i'm sure it didn't do anything. It has more than 100 Gb free space and according to SMART, 180 GB was written to it. I tried to run it with the old driver but it's the same.

Thanks

A.

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16 Replies
JAMES_J_Intel
Employee
138 Views

Hi,

What you are experiencing is the correct expected behavior of the Toolbox v1.3.

Regards,

Jim

idata
Community Manager
138 Views

Hi,

Could you explain this a little more? What is happening? It has nothing to do? How does it know what was left behind by the previous drivers?

Thanks

A.

idata
Community Manager
138 Views

I think that this behavior is indicative of the fact that Windows 7 is natively implementing TRIM commands and so the toolbox is not actually having to do anything which is why it appears to do nothing. You don't really need to run this toolbox with Windows 7 and AHCI.

idata
Community Manager
138 Views

There are AHCI drivers (even older intel matrix storage drivers) which doesn't let trim commands through, no matter win7 issues it or not, so it's not a good idea to deny running cleanup on win7.

Maybe i should do the cleanup manually, by creating a 100+ GB file and deleteing it, now I have the proper AHCI drivers, but this is anything but user friendly. SSD optimizer should tell me exactly why it's not doing the job, just like it displays error message if you try to run it on a RAID volume.

One more thing I'm really missing is a tool which reads the whole SSD and reports the number of clean/trimmed blocks in GB. I could compare it with free space reported by OS so I could check anytime whether trim is working or not.

idata
Community Manager
138 Views

Why are deciding it isn't doing its job? How much data has been deleted from drive and not already overwritten? AFAIK, all the tool has to do is pass a list of deleted blocks to firmware. The firmware will clean up in background. The tool can take a long time to run depending on restore points that may be on the drive. Also, once you install a trim driver, the drive will slowly become trimmed as you use it.

Unless you're seeing some kind of slow, stuttering writes, there's not really anything to worry about.

idata
Community Manager
138 Views

SMART reports 230 GB were written to SSD, win 7 reports 87 GB free from 148 GB. I had other OS on the SSD before I installed win 7. How does the optimizer decides in 2 seconds what blocks needs to be trimmed? Blocks that were probably written by a previous 100% non trim compatile OS.

I hardly believe the firmware can receive several millions of block addresses in 2 seconds and trim them in the background without the help of a software running in the OS. Neither can I beleive the optimizer is able to create this list in 2 seconds from MFT.

I understand the SSD will be trimmed as soon as I've written and deleted at least 160 GB with the TRIM enabled driver, but that's what SSD optimizer should do if I run it by hand.

idata
Community Manager
138 Views

Trim is about deleted data, not written data. How much data was deleted from the drive? Certainly nothing near 230 GB. When you installed Win7, many blocks were written to the disk. Each write was an opportunity for the drive to overwrite unknown deleted blocks, so simply installing Win7 over an old OS will take care of many of the deleted blocks.

Consider: the first OS deleted a file from LBA 1000. It didn't tell the drive, so the drive thinks LBA 1000 has data. Win7 is installed, in the process writing to LBA 1000. The SSD overwrites LBA 1000 and now it has data. There is nothing to trim here. If LBAs were never written to in the first place, then there would be nothing to trim either. Generally, the behavior that results in a lot of trimming is the deleting of small files.

It seems to me that all the Optimizer needs to do for a 160 GB drive is send down 5 million bytes (160 million KB / 4 KB clusters / 8 (bits/byte)) of bitmap data, and then the drive can clean up after the Optimizer has finished. All of this data is stored in one file on NTFS.

idata
Community Manager
138 Views

"How much data was deleted from the drive?"

I don't think this is important. Maybe the ssd was full with garbage when I installed win7. Now I have trim compatible drivers, all I want is a complete cleanup once and after that trim will take care of everything.

"the first OS deleted a file from LBA 1000."

The problem is not what was deleted by the old OS. When I installed win7 and repartitioned the SSD everything was "deleted". But there was certainly no trim for this "delete". Installing win7 only trims/overwrites around 10 GB from the 150 GB.

" send down 5 million bytes (160 million KB / 4 KB clusters / 8 (bits/byte)) of bitmap data, and then the drive can clean up after the Optimizer has finished."

Is there an official statement that the firmware can trim in the background from bitmap data without the OS? I think SSD optimizer manual says it creates a file as big as the free space and simply deletes it with trim. If it can do this background trim why is the optimizer warns about several hours of work and about loosing all free space until it finises?

idata
Community Manager
138 Views

You are truly making a mountain of a molehill here. TRIM takes a split second to wipe. It is not deleting data but rather wiping cells of the deleted data and should only take a split second. If it takes minutes, then you have to worry.

Let me give you an example if I may. Some people leave system restore enabled and then wonder why manually optimizing with the Toolbox takes so long. It has been learned that TRIM doesnt work well, if at all, with system restore and, as a result, you will see all the work being done and taking quite some time in a manual Optimization.

Enjoy the drive. Trust the word of the millions of others who are experiencing split second TRIM as they should.

Les

http://www.thessdreview.blogspot.com The SSD Review

idata
Community Manager
138 Views

Sorry, but I got so many weird ideas about how manual trim is working and why is it taking 2 seconds now that was several hours before. I just want hear an offical answer, becuase I have a feeling it was over-optimized. Like if you have trim compatible drivers, than you don't need manual trimming. But this is unture. One more example: what if I have a dual boot system with xp? When will the data deleted by xp be trimmed?

If trim is so quick (100 GB in 2 seconds?) why did it take hours before? If it is done in the background by the firmware how is it able to create the free/occupied bitmap in 2 seconds from MFT data with hundreds of thounds of files and folders. (if you try an analyse with any defrag tool, which is doing the same, you will see it takes much more time. For me it's about 15-20 seconds)

What happens if I restart to XP while this "background trim" is working? Etc-etc.

If Intel made this unbelievable optimization like doing the same job in 2 seconds which was hours before, why it was not advertised, not even mentioned anywhere on the internet?

Anyway, I asked the offical support about this, if I get a technical answer I will post it.

mmokk
New Contributor II
138 Views

acider wrote:

The problem is not what was deleted by the old OS. When I installed win7 and repartitioned the SSD everything was "deleted". But there was certainly no trim for this "delete".

 

when the partition is formatted, it is trimmed.

the exception is if the ssd is part of a raid array, or if it is connected to the sata controller in raid mode (non-member raid) and you use the default windows 7 raid drivers instead of loading the intel rst 9.6 drivers, since the raid drivers included with windows 7 does not support trim passthrough.

mmokk
New Contributor II
138 Views

acider wrote:

Sorry, but I got so many weird ideas about how manual trim is working and why is it taking 2 seconds now that was several hours before. I just want hear an offical answer, becuase I have a feeling it was over-optimized. Like if you have trim compatible drivers, than you don't need manual trimming. But this is unture. One more example: what if I have a dual boot system with xp? When will the data deleted by xp be trimmed?

 

if you boot into any os that does not support trim and delete files from the ssd, then it will not be trimmed. when you then boot into windows 7 (or any other os that supports trim), it will not be aware of what the other os has done. the untrimmed data will stay untrimmed.

if you do this often, then you may find it beneficial to run trim manually.

idata
Community Manager
138 Views

"if you do this often, then you may find it beneficial to run trim manually."

That's why I opened this thread. I can't run it. Or I just don't believe it's able to do the manual trim in 2 seconds. I think it's not doing anything. If I'll have time I will proove it by booting an XP, writing a big file on SSD, deleting it, booting back to Win 7, running SSD optimizer, then searching the file's content with a disk editor (winhex). I'm sure it will be there...

mmokk
New Contributor II
138 Views

acider wrote:

 

If I'll have time I will proove it by booting an XP, writing a big file on SSD, deleting it, booting back to Win 7, running SSD optimizer, then searching the file's content with a disk editor (winhex). I'm sure it will be there...

 

a better way of testing it is to boot into xp, write a big file to the ssd, delete it, and run a sequential write benchmark. the write performance should be significantly lower than advertised specs. then run the ssd optimizer (either under xp or win7, whichever works for you) and run the write benchmark again. write performance should be very close to advertised specs.
idata
Community Manager
138 Views

OK, I double checked with disk editor, i can affirm with confidence: SSD Optimizer is NOT doing it's job! It's NOT doing anything at all!

Official support stated it's the expected behavior, I hope it's not... (they denied explaining the reason in technical terms)

Test method: i created a 100 Mb file with easily recognizable pattern in Win7, searched it with disk editor (winhex) confirmed it's there. I deleted the file from Win7 checked the same sector, it was full with zeroes. Searched the whole drive for the pattern in case of wear levelling moving it, it was not found. So trim is working perfectly in Win7.

Booted to XP, creating the same file, searching it with winhex, deleting it from XP, searching it again in winhex, the pattern was there. Booting to Win7 running SSD optimizer, exits in 2 seconds, jumping the same sector I mentioned under XP and the whole pattern is there. SSD optimizer is doing NOTHING!

So I ask again, are you sure this is the expected behavior?

I will probaly write my own ssd optimizer, by creating a file as big as free space and deleting it, but this is nonsense with a $500 flagship product...

idata
Community Manager
138 Views

I don't know if you took the following into account when doing your testing, since you didn't mention it, but if a deleted file is in the Windows Recycle Bin, it will not be deleted via TRIM, since those files are not yet marked as deleted by Windows.

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