How best proceed with overheating i7-4790K?

[REnso1]

I have an i7-4790K in a GA-Z97MX Gaming 5 mobo latest F4 BIOS.

I used a Noctua NH-L12 cooler rated at 95W for cooling the processor rated at 88W in a Lian Li PC V354 with 4 fans, 2 in 2 out, case closed and case open, ambient is 27-30°C.

Temperatures in BIOS and memtest86+ were high so I decided to try stress testing and in Prime95 small FFT cores 1&2 overheated to 100°C using Core Temp.

I tried reseating the heatsink and renewing the NT-H1 TIM and opening the case but it made no difference. I have a photo of the contact pattern here.

When I tested using the OCCT benchmark I was unable to complete a test due to the processor overheating so I underclocked the processor to 3.6 GHz, disabled turbo and manually set vCore to 1.1v.

With an underclocked processor I was able to get a heating and cooling curve using the OCCT auto capture, to enable me to study the problem.

Even when underclocked the processor was reaching high temperatures, rapid fluctuations in temperature with work load suggest a bottleneck in the thermal pathway. When I tested with the intel retail cooler which came with the CPU the cooling was much less effective than the NH-L12 (even when underclocked taking just over a minute of OCCT to reach the 85°C cut off point see below) indicating the NH-L12 was doing a good job of removing heat, which meant the processor was making the heat or the source of the bottleneck.

I have discussed it http://forums.hexus.net/cpus/327593-4790k-overheating-nh-l12.html elsewhere. Advice was to contact Intel due to an absence of information relating to my retailer's testing procedures. I have asked about these but am still waiting for a reply.

So my question is how should I proceed from here? Does this qualify for an RMA? If so is it possible to negotiate this with Intel direct or do I have to go through my retailer?

I have done my best to make sure I am not doing anything wrong and I would be grateful for any pointers to any mistakes I may be making.

[MM12]

Because the internal thermal compound within the CPU has gaps or a bridge and is not making proper contact.

[GSing15]

Interesting. Have you been able to resolve it and if so how?

[MM12]

If you scroll up and read post 619, and read post 562 and 563 on page 39 you will see my results.

[GSing15]

Results so far:

My Motherboard does not keep my CPU cool despite undervolting, etc. Also, intel claimed theirs did with stock cooler, sent me it, it didn't. They said that it could be a motherboard issue and offered me to send another (Asus Z97-A)....except I can't test with it since it's an ATX and mine is mATX. I'm curious that maybe it is. Does anybody else have an ASUS Z97-A with i7 4790k stock cooling? What are your temps?

Also Unconnected, you mention in post 619, that coolers can't reduce temps 20 C. ASRock tested for me water cooler vs Stock Cooler. They hit 100C on stock clock with stock cooler and hit 78C using water cooler with overclock to *4.5 gHz

[LCCF]

if he'll still send it, you could test doing the "breadboard" method, ie placing motherboard on a wooden breadboard, plastic cutting board or even a pc of cardboard and connecting everything including psu to the motherboard

obviously you'd need the case close enough to run the power switch lead over to the motherboard, but it would let you test temps

link to a description over on tomshardware http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/faq/id-2176482/breadboarding-stripping-basics-troubleshooting.html http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/faq/id-2176482/breadboarding-stripping-basics-troubleshooting.html

[SPark48]

larryccf,

If you look around at all the hundreds of forums on this same issue, it is obvious that the majority of the "blame" lies with Intel and not with the manufacturers. Unconnected's results with de-lidding only reaffirms that point. He had EVERYTHING ELSE the same and before de-lidding to after de-lidding is 20C... This is not isolated to him. If you look at all the forums, the common "solution" to the issue that has actually been effective is de-lidding. Most people who have been brave enough to do this have solved their issue, regardless of motherboard brand. So if de-lidding fixes the issue regardless of motherboard brand, where does the blame lie? gaganjit's post affirms this even further when ASRock was able to duplicate this same issue with their own motherboards and then had the SAME issue with an ASUS motherboard.

I don't want to keep going on with this back and forth banter with you about whose fault it is. To me, it is already PAINFULLY clear that Intel did something between pre-production testing and mass production.

I am very happy that you were able to get your temperatures within normal range with a BIOS update. Unfortunately, I have not seen these same improvements with the latest BIOS updates in my Maximus VII Formula and Gene motherboards. I have that same motherboard you have (Z97M-Plus) in a computer at work that is currently paired with a G3258 (fantastic chip btw), and I'm pretty sure I can put a 4790K in it and do some testing on it this weekend. I'll let you know what I find.

[MM12]

Also anecdotal.

Run your CPU through a stress test and tell me if your heat sink gets hot. It aught to be too hot to touch if your CPU is 100c.

If it's blazing hot, let me know.

[SPark48]

Unconnected,

I do understand what you are saying, but the discussion on putting "fault" in the right place is not purely anecdotal. It may not be useful in lowering anyone's temperatures, but it is definitely important when it comes to all of these people who have yet to get full reprieve for their overheating CPUs. Finding the correct company to put fault in will help to point these people in the right direction on where to get the help they need. If Intel is at the heart of the issue, it would save the time and hassle of all these people doing RMA's through their motherboard companies.

I know you hate getting these "spam" updates, cause I get them too and they can get pretty annoying. I'm sure it is especially annoying when you have already solved the issue and you're not having the same problem the majority of people still following this thread is still having. Unfortunately, de-lidding is not the answer for everyone. Luckily, I did not have to de-lid my 4790K; the 2nd processor I received for my RMA through Intel has been holding up well. However, when I'm building computers for other people and they are requesting 4790K's, it is really difficult for me to explain to them I have to de-lid their processor for it to get the right temperatures. They're going to call me crazy and go find someone else to build their computer. Additionally, if I build them a computer with a 4790K, and they start overheating, they will again blame me and go find someone else. So until Intel can give me an official answer here on how to proceed with their overheating 4790K's, I'm recommending the 4690K and some AMD processors to most of my buyers.

[MM12]

My anecdotal response was to gaganjit1 about ASrock having a difference in temp between water cooler and stock fan.

I was happy when I read your comment It felt like I was transparent for awhile and nobody was reading what I was saying.

I firmly place the blame on Intel, although in hindsight having fixed the issue, it's so incredibly minor. .0003 cents worth of thermal compound is holding back an amazing processor.

Intel is in a state of damage control with this issue. If they admit fault, they're going to be out a tremendous amount of money due to recalls. It's a shame too, because if it were simply easier to remove the lid, they could just send out new thermal compound to people and the problem would be resolved.I'm unswayed by Intel's inaction on the matter, there simply is no way for them to be able to openly correct this issue without massive backlash.

I happen to have a nearly 100 year old small vice that looks like it was designed specifically to take the lid off a CPU, so I went ahead and delid all the other processors in my house with it. My overclocked G3258 lowered about 5c, but it was operating fine to begin with. (70c)

Thats a difficult situation with your customers however. If they're after a 4790k to begin with, they may be a bit more open to the idea of modifications to keep it running cool.

If you familiarize yourself with the delid process if you haven't already, it's a piece of cake. You can even adhere the IHS back to the chip for a clean professional finish with certain types of glue, and nobody would know the difference.

[GSing15]

Unconnected, I'm not saying you're wrong. I find your findings actually rather interesting. I'm just reporting on what I am finding as well and trying to see if it is indeed possible to lower the temperature without delidding ... I'm pretty sure delidding helps people, but the solution isn't for me especially because i was issued a working CPU that was regarded by intel to be working under 80C but giving me 95C temps. Well, let's not argue. Hopefully, something comes out from all of this.

[LCCF]

SAMPARK - i won't argue that intel may have shipped the initial cpu release with inadequate TIM, but the problem or concern i have with it is that there are an equal number of reports of folks that didn't have success with the de-lidding process and/or a few damaging their cpu (there was one such post just this week on tom's) - obviously once you've done it, your warranty is void

it will be interesting what you find when you install that 4790k on the z97m-plus board at work, assuming it's a) a cpu that was overheating and b) the board has the 2501 bios

if you do update it, there's an easy utility to use to update that bios in the asus AI Suite III (EZ Updater) - you'll have to rename the extracted file "Z97MPLUS.CAP" - i think it extracts as "Z97M-PLUS-Cap" and i forget what the extension on it is

the other reason i lean on the BIOS having conflicts is on the Toms hardware (tomshardware.com) forum, there's a sticky addressing overheating CPUs, and the 4790K and 4690K seem to be popular posted overheating cpus - the resulting suggestions range across the board from the ones seen here, ie thermal paste re-application (which i don't think is a bad idea) to the predominate one of upgrading to a better aftermarket cooler. I ran all of those solutions, and the ones that gave me the most success were a) clearing CMOS, b) un-installing the ASUS performance utility (5-6C at full load) , c) installation of additional case fans to increase air flow (1-2C) d) installation of a noctua NH-L91 cooler and finally e) updating the bios - that cleared so many strange occurances from BIOS spontaneously changing settings to that 20C drop in temps

a number of folks on the toms web feel all the mobo mfgrs are supply crap software or utilities that create conflicts in their own BIOS - and that belief was confirmed by my experience, but you'd think they'd be able to write software that was compatible with the very BIOS they wrote for their own mobo.

I also lean on updating the bios (if a good one is available) as it's the easiest solution if it works - no need to drop coin on another cooler, cut a cpu open etc and literally took 5 minutes using the asus ez updater utility

There's no reason to believe it's any different at the other mobo mfgrs for the reasons i've already stated

this will be my last response on this subject

[SPark48]

Unconnected,

I see. My mistake. I see where you quoted gaganjit, but totally thought you were talking about conversation between Larry and I, which admittedly looks ticky-tacky in the big scheme of things.

I have watched so many Youtube videos and read so many descriptions on de-lidding a processor. I actually practiced on an old Pentium E6600 processor I had that was doing nothing. It really is an easy process. The problem is that if I do that and sell the computer, the warranty is void so if the person that I sold the computer to starts having problems with that processor, well I'm basically going to have to pay for that out-of-pocket. Most people I sell to are family members, friends, or their word of mouth, which makes my reputation even more important. Plus, it's not like you make a ton of money from building and selling computers. I just have a lot of fun building/customizing them with different cable sleeve colors, enamel paints, and LEDs, but at the end of the day, the money I make from it I pretty much use to buy a couple of beers. That's why I've been resistant so far in doing the de-lid process; it just isn't worth the risk for me. I may still do the de-lidding for my own processor. Although it is working fine on all other stress tests, for some reason, the Prime95 Small FFT is still giving me 90C-95C instantly. This goes along with what you were saying, but I have a temperature sensor attached directly to my heatsink and during the test it is giving normal/expected temperatures of 60C-70C. So it HAS to be the IHS between processor and lid.

What you said about Intel is 100% correct. Just talking about ratio of 4790K's I've worked with that have had overheating issues, it was close to 8 of 10 processors overheating. Of course that can be attributed to similar batches sold to the store I purchased them from, but for sure, it is a significant amount of CPU's. "Damage control" is exactly what Intel is trying to do. I'm sure they're trying to buy some time until their newer processors come out and as long as those perform well, most people would have moved onto those and not really care as much about the 4790K. Also, with Ken-Intel chiming in every once in a blue moon, we know Intel is at least monitoring these threads. Yet neither Ken nor any other Intel employee has given us an official response. Several months ago, Ken stated that this information was being passed to their engineers to get to the source of the problem, so they do know about it. But since then, the only updates we have gotten are Ken's setting recommendations and sporadic reminders to use those recommendations. If Intel's official stance is that the MB manufacturers are to blame, tell us that, so people can start processing their warranties with motherboards and get to the source of the problem. If they have found it is an issue with the IHS, then tell us that. I'm very confident that in the MONTHS they have known about this issue, the incredibly smart people working at Intel have found the root of the issue. However, they aren't telling us anything and it's the silence from Intel that I'm very irked about.

Larry,

From what I have read, the vast majority of people that have done the de-lidding process have found drastically improved temperatures in their 4790K's especially when running Prime95 Small FFT tests. I'm in no way advocating that people de-lid their CPU's, in fact as I've said, I have not done it to my own processor. And the fact that your warranty is voided when you de-lid obviously will deter most people from doing this anyway. The only thing I was trying to say to you is that people who are having this overheating issue need to take it up with Intel and not their motherboard manufacturers. I also had a 4790K that was giving 100C+ temperatures and I did an RMA through Intel. The second processor I received is fine. No BIOS or settings changes were done between the exchange. When you start telling people that the blame for these overheating processors is their motherboard manufacturers, you're leading people astray, especially people who may not be as technically knowledged as you and hang on your guidance to get the correct fix. Until Intel officially says "This is not our problem, take this up with your MB manufacturer", everyone having overheating issues with the 4790K needs to take it up with Intel. Otherwise, you're going to waste time/money/hair (due to pulling) trying to get a fix from your MB manufacturer.

[LCCF]

SAMPARK: ".....When you start telling people that the blame for these overheating processors is their motherboard manufacturers, you're leading people astray...."

please go to my original post where i stated "i have to wonder how much of this headache is due to asus?" - that may not be the exact wordage but it's close

then look at my last post where i listed the reasons to try updating bios and hopefully with a good bios

then when you state "..From what I have read, the vast majority of people that have done the de-lidding process have found drastically improved temperatures in their 4790K's especially when running Prime95 Small FFT tests...." i'm sorry sampark, but that would be awfully tempting for newbies to this hobby to accept and attempt to de-lidd their own cpu, and again, within the past week someone just posted on Tom's that they had damaged their cpu, so i ask you, who is possibly leading newbies astray? My way takes them five minutes (all the mobo mfgrs have an easy update utility) and no risk of warranty etc, least amount of effort and if it doesn't work, they can try the progressively more aggressive solutions

sorry, sam but it's kind of obvious you read my posts with some sort of subjective filter

here's link to the damaged cpu from a de-lid attempt http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/answers/id-2573287/failed-delid.html http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/answers/id-2573287/failed-delid.html

[idata]

Sampark1980, no problem at all. I don't get offended! I am sure that environment is not the cause of a temperature increase of 20º, not at all. And this is also my point. Maybe I get lost in translation, or in my English explanations! I agree that this (environment) can be a reason for higher temperatures, but not to that extent!

Larrycf, I got a Asus z97i-plus and my tests were with the BIOS 2401 released in February. No improvement at all. I guess if Asus find the reason why a CPU is not working properly in a mobo series once they fixed for one model, they are able to fix it for all models... However, in Asus website I can see they have released up to three new BIOS versions for my mobo... I will try them when I receive my CPU back from RMA if they don't replace it or if they new one continue with high temperatures.

About de-liding the CPU, obviously this solution is out of scope for a very high percentage of users with this problem... If this is really the cause, Intel should fix it (if they haven't done it yet) and start a replacement program for affected CPUs. Also, it seems my case and gaganjit1 are different from yours (our CPU does not get extremely hot immediately, but after a few minutes of test), so probably de-liding the CPU won't fix it (I will also try to check the cooler during a test to see how hot it gets). BTW, the guy helping me with the RMA mentioned me that they won't provide me with a second CPU in case the replacement continues having the problem... Lucky you Sampark1980 that they gave you a second replacement.

In any case, since I don't want to contribute with unnecessary spam to the list, I won't write many more entries here. I will resign myself with whatever CPU I get since in the end during normal work the CPU does not go further than 82-83º. Not optimal, but it won't stop working for that, and after a few years I will change computer, following the key principle in the tech world... Never buy the latest product, but the... mmmm next-to-last?

Cheers,

K.

[LCCF]

MY previous BIOS was 2402 before the 2501 came out and fixed my issues

watch for BIOS updates at asus's web

[idata]

I can see that z97m-plus bios version 2501 was released on 2014/12/11. That day version 2304 was released for z97i-plus, with the same description: improve system stability. I am not sure whether I ever tried this version or not, but for sure I did with next version, named 2401, without any success. Larryccf, have you update your bios to any newer version?

[SPark48]

Actually, now that I am done laughing, I will say:

1) I never advocated de-lidding. In fact, I repeatedly advised against it. All I said was the success people are having with de-lidding without ANY changes in BIOS is clear evidence that the fault lies with Intel.

2) I never said updating BIOS was a bad idea. I didn't say you're leading people astray by telling them to update BIOS. I'm saying you're leading people astray by making them think they're going to get a fix from their motherboard manufacturers rather than from Intel. They're only going to waste their time and money shipping their motherboard back and forth.

3) You did NOT only suggest updating BIOS. My argument against what you said was SOLELY based on your statement that ASUS was to blame for everyone's overheating problems and not Intel, which is absolutely false. So don't tell me all you did was suggest a "5 minute fix" and nothing else.

I have taken every single statement that you have made and put them together in making my argument, while all you're doing is picking out a part here and a part there of what I said. So, if there is anyone using a filter of any kind, it seems to be you. You go ahead and enjoy your 4790K that is no longer overheating with the latest BIOS update, while the rest of us that still have problems even after the update try to get Intel to help us fix the problem.

Let's stop this Larry. You're obviously getting way too offended by my posts and I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I'm not here to argue with you about what company is at fault for the overheating; it's obvious every party involved (Intel + motherboard manufacturers) all carry some weight of the blame. But again, the most recent BIOS update did NOT work for me, while physically removing the lid and reapplying thermal paste under the internal heat spreader shows promising results. Go back to what you said earlier when you said "this is the last thing I will say about this subject". Let the rest of us talk about how to fix our problem with Intel.

[LCCF]

keridito - i never installed higher than the 2501 update - just went back, and holy smokes, asus has been busy the past couple of days - just found two new updates for my board. I was leary of the 2604 release as it indicated it provided support for the newer Broadwell CPUs, which wasn't very applicable to my situation.

i don't know how valid, but when the asus tech, here in the US, was assisting me with a audio driver issue back when i was assembling this computer, i asked and he specifically said i should install the BIOS, all of them, sequentially in the order of release. Today i'm moving the computer into the new case i ordered, and i'll try the newer updates over the next few days.

sampark - no i'm not offended, it's just frustrating when conversing with someone who hasn't read my post and then mis-characterizes what i've said, while ignoring the reality of what he's said.

But i do agree, let's not bother exchanging any further

[jhill15]

I have the z97m-plus, have updated to the newest bios revision as someone earlier indicated they were getting temp drops.

I get the identical problem as before, the temp skyrockets to 100 celsius during the XTU benchmark.

It's CPU related, not MOBO related. I would love for intel to offer to replace my cpu with a 4790k with a properly seated IHS. at present I have to undervolt just to achieve safe temps during normal computing, and running benchmark software is literally CPU-suicide.

These are at stock settings. I can't even use my XMP profile and take advantage of my quick ram timings because I am fearful that while doing regular computing I will fry my processor.

Really piss-poor testing done on these cores by intel. I will be looking elsewhere for my next processor.

[AOnIT]

Unconnected wrote:

shake my head at the goose chase people are still led on.

...

Getting a 20c drop by switching coolers is unheard of. The stock heat sink fan is sufficient. Between cooler changing, something was mounted differently and now within the CPU, there is better contact between the IHS (The big metal piece on top of the CPU) to the CPU.

While I don't disagree some (the majority?) of issues are due to the CPUs themselves and the TIM, saying people are on a "goose chase" for looking at other things is fairly unhelpful.

My findings were:

* Some boards do have voltage issue problems with out-of-the-box settings. The Gigabyte Z97X-UD5H started pumping 1.4v or 1.5v through while running Prime, causing instant shutdown. Loading optimised defaults fixed this.

* I saw 20 degrees difference between the stock cooler and an aftermarket, without any other changes.

Anecdotal? Sure. But they were absolutely the results the I found with this CPU.

Unconnected wrote:

I keep getting email updates on this thread

Click the "Following in" button in the top right corner, and uncheck email. Should no longer receive the updates.

[SPark48]

ashonit,

I also agree that motherboard manufacturers are partly to blame for the issue. But the motherboard manufacturers aren't dumb - they're not going to put those insane out-of-the-box settings for no reason or just to "rush out a product" as 'some' have stated. If that were so, we'd have the same issue going on with other processors, including i5's, other locked/unlocked i7's, and AMDs since it's the same choice of motherboards being used for all these different processors. Although those processors do have their own overheating problems, they're much more sporadic and it's nowhere close in magnitude to the amount of 4790K's with overheating issues. As of now (knock-on-wood), the overheating seems to be isolated to the unlocked i7 Haswell/Haswell-e processors. For example, if my ASUS motherboard was the issue, then you would expect that I would have the same problems with an G3258, or a 4690K, but it doesn't; I only have overheating with the 4790K. On top of that, if it were only Gigabyte motherboards that had these over-the-top settings, then you can say Gigabyte made a mistake. But to say that ASUS, ASRock, EVGA, MSI, Supermicro all made the same exact mistake completely independent of each other is highly unlikely, wouldn't you agree? Even if they're trying to rush product out, you would think at least ONE of those SIX would have gotten it correct! But they didn't, they all have the same issue with insane settings. Why would they put the settings like this for no reason? All six of them? It just doesn't add up. To me, it makes more sense that they tested these motherboards with a processor Intel loaned out to them and they worked fine, so they started producing the boards. But then Intel mass produced a processor that was built slightly differently than the ones they loaned out, so now we're having overheating, while when these boards had the pre-production loaner processor, they were fine. Like you mentioned, clearing CMOS/loading defaults can fix the issue for a few people. Ken-Intel's settings fixes it for a few others. But for most people it's either 1) not fixed and is still overheating, or 2) processor is crippled with the reduced settings.

The fact that you saw 20 degree drop from a stock cooler to an aftermarket cooler actually affirms the belief many people have that it is a problem with the internal heat spreader (IHS). For stock coolers, you can't really control how tight the cooler sits on top of the CPU. However, with many aftermarket coolers, you can torque them more and put more force onto the top of the CPU, thereby decreasing space between processor and IHS and allowing better heat conduction. This would explain the drop of 20 degrees, which isn't common in a normal situation if you're simply swapping coolers.