HD 4000 small graphical bugs / 3570K temperature concern

[idata]

I have an HD4000 connected to a 32" LG LCD in my bedroom via HDMI. The first issue I have is if I turn my PC on without my TV on or my TV on the cable input while the computer boots up, some of my desktop icons (most of them on the right side) get re-arranged.

The second issue I have is, I use a screen saver and when the computer is on and I switch to my cable TV input then back to my PC input (HDMI) while the screensaver is running, the right side of the screen (about 3 inches of the screen) shows my desktop while the rest of the screen shows the screensaver going.

I also have computer speakers connected to the onboard audio on my motherboard (VIA chipset). When I have my speakers on and I switch away from my PC input (HDMI) I hear a sound as if you were to disconnect a device from your PC, which is probably caused by the GPU losing signal with the display.

It seems to me that these two issues are related and that if you're not on the input the PC is connected to, it doesn't send a video/audio stream/signal so if I turn my PC on not being on the PC input, there's issues. If I switch inputs then switch back, there's issues. Both cases seem to be causing issues on the right side of the screen.

Is it possible to send a constant signal/stream through the HDMI output, even if there's no connection with the display? Or at least, can you fix these graphical issues that popup? It's not a big deal by any means, but it is annoying nonetheless.

I'm using WIndows 7 64-bit and the latest Intel graphics drivers on your website.

My second question is completely unrelated, but I have concerns about my 3570k temperatures. I'm using the stock cooler and I'm not overclocked but my temperatures running x264 video encoder causes my temperatures to reach 70c in a 22c room. I'm using RealTemp to check temperatures. That seems high for a stock system, even if I'm using the stock cooler. Should I be concerned at all?

[Xenon2000]

HDMI with HDCP is a handshake-based protocol. HDMI will not continue the stream in the background. Every time you change the input on the HDMI display, the PC will cut the HDMI stream. This is not a glitch of the HD4000 GPU, but the nature of HDMI. The other issues you describe are all based on that behavior. DVI and VGA connected monitors will not have this behavior.

I have the i7-3770K with stock cooler and it will run hot when utilization is high for extended periods such as video encoding, 3D rendering, etc. The max on my chip is 105c as set by Intel. Though that is the literal max. The system will throttle the cpu to keep it cooler than that. Commonly accepted temps for 24/7 operation at max utilization for stock or overclocked Ivy Bridge systems is under 80, and some are ok with under 90c for extreme overclocking with shorter bursts of 100% utilization.

So you are fine at 70c with your chip.

[idata]

Thanks for the reply.

I understand that. But, I had an AMD based system prior to my Ivy Bridge system and as long as I had my TV on while the computer booted up, I was fine. I could switch to a different input come back and my icons were kept in place and my screensaver would be functioning as usual.

With my Ivy Bridge/HD4000 system, if I bootup with the TV off, some of the icons are scrambled. If I bootup with the TV on, it's fine. BUT, when I switch inputs and come back, the screen saver is only showing on 3/4 of the screen (right side shows the desktop) and some of my icons move.

On my AMD system, if I switched inputs, I didn't hear the sound Windows 7 makes when you disconnect a piece of hardware like I do on my current system.

All I want is for my desktop icons to not get moved around when I switch inputs and comeback to my PC input.

[Xenon2000]

Interesting? And the AMD system was using this same LCD and was HDMI on both ends? Not DVI on one end? And this HDMI LCD display is the only display on the HD4000?

I have 2 other Intel systems used as HTPCs. One is an ATI PCIE card via HDMI on both ends to an LCD Sony TV as the only display. And the other is an Nvidia PCIE card via a DVI-HDMI to a receiver and then to a projector as it's only display. Both of those systems can have the Displays turned off or inputs changed without any affect on those desktops.

So I do know it's possible. But those are very specific applications. My HD4000 setup without a dedicated video card with HDMI on both ends to a 1080p LCD TV right now in my bedroom, has the same behaviors as you. But I have a dual screen setup in there. I should test with just the LCD TV as the only display and get back to you. On my setup, the VGA output defaults as the only display (hence the icons moving) if my HDMI connection is lost by changing inputs. I will see if my motherboard has the option of forcing only the HDMI output.

[idata]

Yes, same display (LG 32" LCD TV), both using HDMI.

Since you can repeat the same thing I'm experiencing, hopefully Intel can easily look into this and fix it.

[Xenon2000]

So you have 2 of these side by side? Both via HDMI. But it is HDMI on both the HD4000 side and the TV side?

So you have:

TV 1, HDMI -> HDMI on motherboard

TV 2, HDMI -> HDMI on motherboard? I haven't seen any Z77 boards with dual HDMI. Or is this 2nd one going to Displayport or DVI-D?

The reason I ask about dual display is that I think that is the issue. I will check when I get home. I have a theory that mine might work fine with my HDMI LCD TV if it's the only display. But we will see.

Curious, is your 32" LCD a TV? If so, is it 1080p? Seems like all the 32" TVs I found were 720p except for the very expensive ones. So I found a 39" 1080P LCD from Costco for only $350 to use.

[idata]

No, I only have 1 TV and, at the moment, 1 computer. I just sold my AMD computer and just built this Ivy Bridge system. My old AMD rig didn't have such issues.

HDMI is going from my motherboard (gigabyte Z77M) to my TV. No dual displays.

The TV is a 32" 720p LCD (1366x768).

[Xenon2000]

Ah. Just 1 TV. I am still going to test myself. My other 2 Intel systems are using PCIE video cards and not the onboard. So that could be the difference.

[idata]

I'm pretty sure it's an intel bug.

I have 2 other HTPCs connected with HDMI (both AMD/ATI based), one connected to an LG 55" LCD and the other connected to my Pioneer AVReceiver (which will soon be connected to a 60" Panasonic Plasma). One is using the onboard HD3200 ATI graphics and the other is using a Radeon 5570. My receiver seems to send a constant stream (at least the sound gets put through) even if I'm on a different input. My LG 55" LCD behaves the same way as my 32" LG LCD. I've never experienced desktop icons being moved around before, but then again, this is my first Intel build ever.

I used to have a Samsung LCD connected to one of my HTPCs and no such issues either,

[Xenon2000]

Sorry, a huge oops on my part. I just remembered that my i7-3770K system that I am setting up is on HDMI port 2 of my LCD TV as the only display and I don't have your issue at all. Doh! Sorry about that. It's my current main system which is a 3.5 year old Intel E8500 Dual core with Nvidia PCIE video card using DVI-D to HDMI on the HDMI 1 port of the TV and my 2nd LCD is on that same Nvidia card with VGA.

My AMD netbook with HDMI output acts the same way as your HD4000 onboard video acts. If I change inputs, it activates the netbook display, chimes, and re-arranges the icons. My main point is that I don't think this is a defect. Not saying it's a desired effect or that other solutions don't act "better". And not saying Intel won't update the drivers for more options or to behave differently. But I don't think it's a bug or defect and I highly doubt Intel will either.

I did have one PCIE Nvidia card with HDMI out that Windows 7 would change the res if I turned off my projector and then used LogMeIn to remote that system with the display off. That is the only time it has happened to me with single Display HDMI setups. Otherwise I have seen it quite a lot with Intel onboard graphics for HDMI and Displayport output types when used with dual screen setups. I think those where Sandy-Bridge chips.

Message was edited by: Shawn , So much for me trying to be helpful while at work. Just too excited about setting up my new system.

[idata]

Can you try waiting for the screensaver to come on, then switch back to that input? And to make it the same scenario, I'm using the 3D Ribbons screensaver.

It's not like all of my icons get re-arranged... only some of them do (2-3). I have them lined up in a very particular order.

[Xenon2000]

yup, looks fine for me. I switch back to that input and my screensaver (ribbons) looks fine. I move the mouse and my desktop looks fine. I placed new icons (normally just the trash for me) in the 2 corners and some in the middle. Nothing moved.

I have now removed my 3770K cpu as I am shipping it back to Amazon for a replacement CPU. As I have been searching all over the internet and it appears there no reason my 3770K should be 95+ C with the stock cooler and stock speeds at 100% utilization. So I now have to wait to get the replacement, no stock right now. I never had any freezing, BSOD, or other crashes. But I won't feel good about my new CPU if I can't get the temps in a normal 70C range with the stock cooler. With my room at 25C, I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be getting 70-75C max temps on the stock cooler.

[Xenon2000]

K, I am at home now. I have confirmed that my HD4000 gpu does not have your issue at all. My PC will turn on fully and without rearranging the icons with the TV off. I can also turn the TV off and on and no issue. I can change inputs and come back and still no issues. Sadly I was mistaking my symptoms for my main E8500 system that uses an Nvidia PCIE card with HDMI and VGA dual screen setup. With that card, and my main display set as my HDMI TV, I get the screen changes similar to you. But again, not the HD4000 at all.

That is the confusion I get for sharing my TV display with 2 systems. It won't always be that way. But while I am setting up my 3770K and still using my E8500.

[idata]

Well, Ivy is supposed to run hotter than Sandy and I have seen some people get over 80c with the stock cooler. But ya, 95c sounds too high. Running prime95, my 3570k gets to 77c and x264 puts it at 68-70c (room temp 22-23c).

Oh well. Must be the way I have my icons arranged. It's really only 2 icons that keep moving (weird). Only when I bootup my computer without my TV on (or not on the HDMI/PC input) that more icons get moved. I guess I just have to hope that Intel fixes this in the next update or two.

Anyway, thanks for your help.

[Xenon2000]

Tom's Hardware and other review sites show that Ivy Bridge is a cooler running, more efficient, faster chip than it's Sandy Bridge equivalent.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ivy-bridge-benchmark-core-i7-3770k,3181-23.html http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ivy-bridge-benchmark-core-i7-3770k,3181-23.html

i7-3770K (Ivy) is a 77W TDP chip and 2700K (Sandy Bridge) is a 95W TDP chip. Both 3.5 Ghz chips. Ivy Bridge is actually slightly faster overall at slightly less power usage.

The only time Ivy Bridge is hotter than Sandy Bridge in all the review sites I have read so far, is when overclocking.

I was hitting 95c on the coolest core and up to 102C on the hottest core. TJmax is 105C, which is why I am doing an exchange. I have re-seated with new thermal compound 4 times and the same results each time. I don't know what is wrong as it's is unlikely that the 3 tools I am using are all wrong in the same way. And they are the same tools and versions that others are measuring the 3770K.

It is odd that I am also using a TV LCD with HDMI on the same HD4000 integrated GPU and I am not having the same issue. Other than the motherboard, it seems the main difference is our TV's resolutions. When I have my Ivy Bridge CPU again, I would like to hook it up to my 720P TV via HDMI to see what happens. Though my PC on that right now has no issues. Though that is a 1280x720p TV and yours is a 1366x768 TV. Curious if that has anything to do with it. But I highly doubt it.

For Troubleshooting, do you have another HDMI display you could test with? To see if you get the same results with other displays? Just seems odd that my HD4000 with an i7 would act differently than your HD4000 with an i5. I can't see how that would matter at all. Should be the same GPU exactly.

[idata]

That review shows that it's more energy efficient, which it is. However, it has a smaller die, thus less surface area which makes it harder to dissipate heat. Plus, there have been lots of discussion and articles that they used TIM (thermal interface material) rather than solder in the Ivy Bridge chips. One asian website actually removed the heatspreader and applied higher quality TIM and the temperatures were much better.

[Xenon2000]

http://www.techpowerup.com/164858/Ivy-Bridge-Temperatures-Could-Be-Linked-To-TIM-Inside-Integrated-Heatspreader-Report.html http://www.techpowerup.com/164858/Ivy-Bridge-Temperatures-Could-Be-Linked-To-TIM-Inside-Integrated-Heatspreader-Report.html

Yes, I have seen the IHS TIM reports and I understand that due to the 3D transistors that the heat spots are more dense and harder to cool.

http://forums.tweaktown.com/processors/47428-intel-i7-2700k-temperature-worries.html http://forums.tweaktown.com/processors/47428-intel-i7-2700k-temperature-worries.html

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1914/16/ Intel Core i7-3770K 3.5GHz Ivy Bridge Processor Review - Intel Core i7-3770K CPU Water Temp Testing & Overclocking - Legit Reviews

And many other forums and reviews show the i7-2700K with stock cooler and stock speeds has similar temps to the 3770K stock. But yes, the 3770K in general runs a little hotter. But close enough if you ask me to consider as similar (when including distance from TJmax). The hardest part for me in the past week of searching, has been finding temperature data on the 3770K at stock speeds and stock cooling. Everyone is talking about overclocking. Which I will get to. Many review sites claim that at stock the temperatures are similar to Sandy Bridge but that the temps quickly ramp up due to the smaller die and 3D transistor density. But again, they don't reference the stock temps, only the OC temps. And even then, they say that at similar OC temps, while the 3770K may be a lower clock speed, the benchmarks show the performance to be similar and sometimes better than the Sandy Bridge OC at a higher clock. As in a 4.7 Ghz OC 3770K is about the same or better than Sandy Bridge at 5.0 Ghz OC.

Of course another variation in all of this is that Ivy Bridge has a higher TJmax than Sandy Bridge. Though TJmax is calibrated and set on the die. Though I hear There is only about a 5-7C difference more tolerance for Ivy Bridge. Meaning that running the 3770K 5-7C hotter is really no big deal.

Overall, I only expect a 5-10C difference between a stock 2700K and stock 3770K, but I haven't found a lot of data on that yet. Certainly no reason I should have been getting 95-102C with my stock cooler in less than 3 mins. It shouldn't hit that 24/7 in a room that is 25C. So it will be interesting to see how my replacement CPU acts. I have never sent back a CPU, so it's disappointing.

[idata]

At idle and typical desktop use, the latest retail Ivy Bridge can run just a bit cooler (27C idle / 60C load) using a good CPU cooler. Yes, limited surface contact hurts the convection process.

However, the launch chips run hotter than Sandy Bridge in my lab even with a very good CPU cooler. I have a couple chips that definitely have the IHS issue as they idle at 35C and load 65C. Personally, I do NOT like having my CPU cooling fan working double time. The retail CPU coolers are NOT very quiet and completely ruin the potential of a silent/quiet system.

While I am a fan of Intel processors, they really should look in to replacing any Ivy Bridge processors that have the IHS heat issue. It would be easy to do as they have the bin / serial numbers on record.

[Xenon2000]

Yeah, I will not be keeping the stock cooler once I feel my cpu is normal. Mine was getting so hot that it was throttling back the clock speed. No excuse for that. I actually felt the stock cooler on mine was pretty quiet compared to my stock E8500 cooler back in the day. I mean at idle and up to 50% TDP. Higher and the fan ramps up to be quite loud.

Though it won't matter as I will have a huge cooler later. I keep hoping that Intel will announce that they are replacing the crappy TIM under the IHS for our chips. As the 22nm is already very dense with difficult heat spreading, the last thing it needs is crappy TIM slowing down proper cooling. I can't imagine there was a big cost difference so it's hard to imagine cost was the only factor in their decision. But I would love to know.

[plee21]

Hi

Soldering might have been found to be a potential point of failure in the longer term. As the chip and the metal heat spreader expand and contract at different rates as heat comes and goes there are stresses and strains between the two pieces, naturally they want to move against each other but are stuck fast by the solder.

Where Ivy Bridge is producing less heat perhaps Intel could now use a paste rather than solder, this allows both the heat spreader and the chip to move against each other and avoid any extra stresses due to thermal cycling.

My i7 3770 gets up to 85 degrees under load, I don't see this being a problem as silicon can go up to 150 degrees or more. My old i5 processor spent hundreds maybe thousands of hours encoding HD video using x264 and was maxed out around 90 degrees and 3 years later still going strong. I have to agree the stock coolers from Intel when ramped up are a bit noisy, but I'd prefer that occasionally than hanging a heavy over-sized heatsink from a motherboard vertical in the case.

Regards

Phil

[Xenon2000]

Though that logic would dictate that the hotter chip would have more issues with expansion and contraction of the 2 materials. If my 3770K was 85C max for a 24/7 stress test in my 24-25C room, I would be happy and call it good, and then move on to a bigger cooler to start overclocking. But it was way too hot and throttling the CPU.

Very few air coolers are heavy enough that I would be concerned with stress on the motherboard. Though I am not worried with the biggest air cooler I can find, like the Noctua NH-D14, as my Gigabyte motherboard is a heavily reinforced PCB. But even if it was not, I have not seen any reports from anyone with issues on even that heavy monster. And that cooler is at least 1.5 years old and well tested. And I have been using air coolers that are at least 2 to 3 times the weight of the stock cooler without issues for years.

Still, I really hope Intel either defends their TIM choice or recalls it. I had when something obvious is ignored.