July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th and 14th Gen Desktop Processors

[Thomas_Hannaford]

*9/25/24 - Please go to the following link for the latest updates: Intel Core 13th and 14th Gen Desktop Processor Vmin Instability Issue Root Cause*

*Update 8/26 clarifying support guidance for Intel Core 13th/14th Gen desktop tray CPU purchases*

*Update 7/29 regarding customer support process guidance (included below as well): https://community.intel.com/t5/Processors/Clarification-Update-on-Intel-Core-13th-14th-Gen-Desktop/m-p/1618462

Based on extensive analysis of Intel Core 13th/14th Gen desktop processors returned to us due to instability issues, we have determined that elevated operating voltage is causing instability issues in some 13th/14th Gen desktop processors. Our analysis of returned processors confirms that the elevated operating voltage is stemming from a microcode algorithm resulting in incorrect voltage requests to the processor.

Intel is delivering a microcode patch which addresses the root cause of exposure to elevated voltages. We are continuing validation to ensure that scenarios of instability reported to Intel regarding its Core 13th/14th Gen desktop processors are addressed. Intel is currently targeting mid-August for patch release to partners following full validation.

Intel is committed to making sure all customers who have or are currently experiencing instability symptoms on their 13th and/or 14th Gen desktop processors are supported in the exchange process.

To help streamline the support process, Intel's guidance is as follows:

• For users who purchased 13th/14th Gen-powered desktop systems from OEM/System Integrator - please reach out to your system vendor's customer support team for further assistance.
• For users who purchased boxed 13th/14th Gen desktop processors - please reach out to Intel Customer Support for further assistance.
• For users who purchased tray 13th/14th Gen desktop processors - please reach out to your place of purchase for further assistance.
•  

[pressed_for_time]

It's unfortunate about Gigabyte and the lack of BIOS updates. I can confirm that ASUS is updating its 600 boards on a similar schedule to the 700 boards. For example, ASUS 600 boards received the most recent BIOS update on July 15, this is the one that has the latest microcode 0x125.

[MrAgapiGCarlos]

sadly that was the board that was available on time that day 1 plus years ago. but i order replacement but i need to wait until work finish in 10 days to swap those out and put it on a bin. let see if intel see this and pressure them since intel will have to cover this and has to be asap.

[Looping62]

NonBonjour,
Oui Asus a fait des mise à jour bios, mais ces mises à jour sont truquées car elle baisse des tension ce qui fait que le processeur ne fonctionne pas à la fréquence donnée à la vente mais en dessou, et le changement de tension du Bios Asus impacte aussi la DDR5 'boot impossible avec XMP activé' ???

[IxeYgrek]

Les paramètres par défaut ASUS était bien au dessus des recommandations stock d'Intel. La mise à jour du BIOS rétablit les vrais paramètres stock recommandés par Intel.

Je suis par ailleurs en mesure de booter avec de la RAM DDR5 avec un profil XMP.

[Mornnb]

This leaves many questions open - did this microcode overvolting cause degradation or merely instability? Was it for vcore, uncore or SA? What can I manually adjust to limit it while waiting for the update?

[Sid9911199]

How does a bad microcode affect only(a certain number of same chips to fail).. seems like a deeper mistake in the architecture or manufacturing quality control here which is being covered up..what about those 13,14 gen chips that have fixed  factory set default voltages and powers that are also failing..

[pressed_for_time]

The only connection I have with Intel is that I am a user of 14th gen hardware.

As far as I can see Intel have been completely open about the issues with instability affecting some 13th and 14th gen K/KF/KS processors. As a result of the investigations carried out into this a fault with eTVB (Enhanced Thermal Velocity Boost) was discovered and corrected with the latest microcode update 0x125. As noted above, a further microcode update should be available in August to deal with the remaining issue.

Speculating that it is anything else is just that speculation. I am aware that one of the YouTubers has published a video claiming that there could be a manufacturing defect related to "Oxidation" of copper through silicon vias. A member of Intel staff has commented on this on Reddit. What they said was "...We can confirm that the via Oxidation manufacturing issue affected some early Intel Core 13th Gen desktop processors. However, the issue was root caused and addressed with manufacturing improvements and screens in 2023. We have also looked at it from the instability reports on Intel Core 13th Gen desktop processors and the analysis to-date has determined that only a small number of instability reports can be connected to the manufacturing issue".

[Vlad11]

No, they have not been completely open at all. That's why people are still speculating. They didn't explain exactly what is going on. They just said incorrect elevated voltages requested by the CPU microcode are the root cause. They didn't describe exactly which voltages they are talking about, and how exactly the elevated voltages caused the instability issue.

In particular, they didn't say if the elevated voltages caused irreversible degradation of the CPU, which in turn caused the stability issues. They didn't say if fixing the microcode will make the affected CPUs stable again, or if the fix just prevents further degradation of the CPU. They didn't say if the microcode update will reduce performance to restore stability.

It's very likely that there is permanent damage to the CPUs exposed to the excessive voltage. Even CPUs that are still stable now may have had their life significantly reduced already. My CPU is unstable, it became unstable after just a couple of months of use, and I had to reduce its maximum frequency repeatedly, every 3-4 months, to keep it stable. It's very likely that it has been permanently damaged by this issue, and it might have been affected by the oxidation issue too, and it will probably have to be replaced.

Even the oxidation question has only been answered on reddit after somebody asked, instead of adding this information here from the beginning. I mean, I appreciate we got some information, but considering the scale of the issues its less than I expected.

For the oxidation issue for example, we don't have the exact time range for the products affected, or other ways to identify if we are affected or not. I bought my CPU in December 2022, so since the oxidation issue was fixed in 2023, I'm almost certainly affected.

[FantaKal]

"Completely open"?!?!?!?!?!? LMAO!

these problems were discovered by third parties, Intel first denied it by blaming the motherboard manufacturers and their settings, then they downplayed it, then turned out that there had been problems with the chips from the beginning 2023, then they said that by updating the bios with the baseline values ​​they indicated, we would be safe, then turned out that it was not the case and instead there is a microcode fault, but there were also some CPUs with oxidation problems, but they didn't say which ones (and they know it), to avoid having to recall and replace them (evidently they are not just 'some' CPUs), and they added that 'the oxidation problems was solved during 2023', without specifying when (February? November? changes a lot!)...

Is this to be completely open, to ypou?!?!?!?

meanwhile the new generation CPUs will be produced for Intel by TMSC, no more internal production, like the 13th and 14th generation... does this mean anything to you? why do they move production to Taiwan, after having invested billions and billions in their lines, if the problem has been solved.......???
How can you still trust a company that operates and communicates like this...?
How can I know that the fix will really be the solution and not yet another patch that will just extend the life of the CPU, maybe in exchange for a nice weakening of the performances, those few months that are needed to go out of warranty, avoiding Intel a further bloodbath with of rma???
How many people who are aware of problems and faced with a similar communication would buy their Intel processors again today? very few! How many would ask for a refund if they could (and legally there would be margins)? there are ample margins for monumental class actions (which there will certainly be in the USA), while the majority of consumers will just take it their bottom... It will take Intel at least 10 years to regain the trust of consumers and partners , after this blow, and will have to change a lot, even at the internal structure level (too pachydermal) and create fabulous chips one after the other, to achieve that...

[FantaKal]

Intel is clearly BSing us to 'control' the damage as much as they can... I think the microcode patch will just set the chip in a way that their life will be prolonged enugh to pass the warranty period, avoiding a(nother) bloodbath with RMA... If they told the thruth they'll probably have to refund almost every 13th & 14th generation buyer...

[JeremieF]

Thank you for finally acknowledging the manufacturing defect. While the microcode patch is a positive step towards resolving instability issues, I have some concerns that I would like to raise.

I am not an engineer, but I believe it is important to consider the potential long-term effects of this voltage issue. Elevated operating voltages can cause significant stress on the CPU, potentially leading to electromigration and irreversible damage that may not be obvious under use. Even if the microcode patch effectively corrects the voltage regulation, the CPUs that have been exposed to these higher voltages may have already suffered from some level of degradation.

My primary concern is that the affected CPUs may now have a shorter lifespan than initially expected. While the patch might prolong their life beyond the warranty period, these CPUs could still die prematurely or at least sooner than users might anticipate based on their experience with previous generations.

I would appreciate it if Intel could provide more detailed information on the potential long-term impacts of this issue and any steps being taken to address them. Additionally, for those of us who have received replacement CPUs, it would be helpful to understand what measures are being implemented to ensure these units have not been compromised by the elevated voltages.

Thank you for your attention to this matter. I look forward to any additional insights or assurances Intel can provide regarding the long-term reliability of the affected processors.

[BFeely]

I RMAed my last 13900K way back early last year because one of the cores was completely broken.   When I sent back the broken processor I had at that point recommended Intel analyze what had gone wrong, especially since it was passing the official diagnostic tool and only failing on third party stress tests.  They just said they'd destroy it.  Unfortunately, if they had followed through that meant they lost out on some very early warning signs.

My current 13900K has shown some signs of degradation, at first requiring limiting of power to prevent instability but when the motherboard showed signs of failure and had to be replaced, I was able to restore stability with the replacement motherboard's Intel Default Settings firmware.

[botmanprocessor]

I too had to RMA a 14900KS because of a bad core. I had problems as soon as I installed it, so it wasn't a degradation thing. My replacement has been solid since I got it a week ago. Hope it doesn't degrade over time in any way. After keeping an eye on the news about the 13/14th gen stuff, its nice to see some sort of statement from Intel and that a fix is on its way. But, as another poster pointed out, it leaves a few questions to be answered. 

[BFeely]

Definitely stay up to date on BIOS updates, and if you have a Z690 motherboard that stopped getting updates consider replacing it with a Z790 to get access to the "Intel Default Settings" mode.  If you stay on the Z690, research the parameters and manually set them in the BIOS to help stability.

[FantaKal]

they prefered to destroy it because they didn't need an 'early warning', and they didnt'need an early warning because they already knew (so better destroy the 'evidence').

That's the real problem, now: they have changed so many version of the story that they've lost any credibility.
these problems were discovered by third parties, Intel first denied it by blaming the motherboard manufacturers and their settings, then they downplayed it, then turned out that there had been problems with the chips from the beginning 2023, then they said that by updating the bios with the baseline values ​​they indicated, we would be safe, then turned out that it was not the case and instead there is a microcode fault, but there were also some CPUs with oxidation problems, but they didn't say which ones (and they know it), to avoid having to recall and replace them (evidently they are not just 'some' CPUs), and they added that 'the oxidation problems was solved during 2023', without specifying when (February? November? changes a lot!)... meanwhile the new generation CPUs will be produced for Intel by TMSC, no more internal production, like the 13th and 14th generation... does this mean anything to you? why do they move production to Taiwan, after having invested billions and billions in their lines, if the problem has been solved.......???
How can you still trust a company that operates and communicates like this...?
How can I know that the fix will really be the solution and not yet another patch that will just extend the life of the CPU, maybe in exchange for a nice weakening of the performances, those few months that are needed to go out of warranty, avoiding Intel a further bloodbath with of rma???

[RP369]

Does this issue cane be contained with 800 series motherboards ?

[BFeely]

If you're thinking like Z890 isn't that for Arrow Lake?

[ysk_PLUZ]

I have already RMA'd 14000KS twice.
In both cases, symptoms appeared within about two weeks.
The damage should accumulate by mid-August. Even if microcode solves the problem, it's still a ticking time bomb.

[ysk_PLUZ]

マイクロコードの更新を待っている内に3つめの14900KSにも劣化の兆候が見られ始めました。

共通して新品時よりもCoreVIDの最大値が明らかに上がっていき、次第に様々なアプリケーションでクラッシュします。その後BSODを引き起こすようになります。

しかし過去にも2回のRMAで業務においてPCを使えず損失が出ているため、もう業務を止めることができません。

IntelはカスタマーがPCの仕様を止めること無く交換できるような方法を考えてほしいです。

[CoolBook]

@ysk_PLUZ 

I'm really sorry to hear that, but the KS SKUs are not meant for the average user.

Intel made a huge mistake selling them like ordinary CPUs. They come with a massive overclock and no proper safety limit set (apparently). Any review would tell you that the 14900KS is basically impossible to use at stock voltages without delidding etc.

It really hurts knowing that you just keep on destroying more and more chips though.

Did it never occur to you that perhaps there is a reason all those chips die under your care?

Maybe you should understand your own limitations and get a non K SKU to start with?

And why in the world would you buy an extreme overclocking CPU for work?

Sorry if I'm a bit negative here, but the user also has a responsibility...

[ysk_PLUZ]

>なにか理由がある

その結果が度重なるパッチのリリースや推奨設定の案内ではないですか？

PL1:253W PL2:253W ICCMAX:307Aで使用しており、温度もアイドル時35℃前後を保っていますが

今までの個体はおよそ2週間程度で劣化の兆候が見られます。

映像関係や3D関係の仕事をしているため上位のCPUを選んでいます。

あなたも述べているとおり、KS SKUを一般向けに販売しているというIntelのミスであれば

ユーザーがさらに負担をして新たに下位のCPUを購入しなければならないのはおかしいのではないでしょうか？