Are you one of those who are constantly complaining about 13th and 14th gen stability and BSODs? Well, read this:
While this specifically mentions ASUS, MSI and Gigabyte are in this mess also.
Doc (not an Intel employee or contractor)
[If you find any Intel driver you might need, download and save it now.]
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@Keean wrote:
> for what i care, the temperature sensing resistor - has exactly that size, and if that is the case, the whole surface under the Pcore is sensing temperature.
The temperature sensors are a lot smaller than you seem to think.
> yes, 1 core can have only 1 thread
No, p-cores can each run two threads at the same time. This is called hyper-threading by Intel. So you need to measure with both threads in the core running.
> Load shuffling can be seen in Task Manager and XTU as well, since both can show load on all cores.
Load shuffling is hiding the failure and making it harder to see, you want to use set affinity to lock the process to one core to make the problem easier to see. The load shuffling is not perfect, and occasionally you will end up with both hyper-threads on the same p-core loaded and it will cause a crash.
you could turn pretty much any metal to a temperature sensing resistor, size does not matter, but for a core it would actually matter.
Too small and it would not pick up a possible hot spot, too big and it could potentially grab just the average temperature instead of the highest value. If a Pcore is about 3x4 mm, then having a 3x3 temperature sensor is not a wronrg thing.
Pretty sure it huge compared to a chunk of transistors and pretty sure it sits dead centre of a core.
And what you think of, is not what it seems, such resistor can be 3x3mm, but thickness of 1µm or less.
As an example, SMD resistors, sometimes used as a fuse, and two normal resistors in the middle:
The ones in the middle have actually a core made of some ceramic material, the actual resistive part is wrapped like a spring around the core, and it's diametre can be as much as 1mm, and as little as 0,1mm.
Not sure how thick is the layer on the SMD resistors, 10µm? who knows. These SMD resistors do also have a ceramic core, except the core is flat to reduce height.
...it does not matter, if it's a Pcore or Ecore, a single core has 1 thread only, you need multiple cores for 2x number of threads.
That is why you can run a single thread benchmark, and multithread. The first option actually tests just one core but at full load, the second one does all cores at full load, and all their capabilities too.
So if you run a single core benchmark, there will be only one thread.....
Edit
So i went BIOS, disabled all Ecores and all P cores but one.
The task manager actually showed 2 threads , but the TDP while running a stress test never exceeded 42W.
The thing with 2 threads but 1 core makes no sense.
You mean this image here? (microscopic 3x)
Did you actually look at the scale on the right side? the coldest temp in picture is 20°C, the hottest 27°C, and areas around 27°C parts, are green ? 23~24°C.
The scale shows up to 31°C but i can't seem to find anything with that color.
Difference in 3°C, that is not a hot spot.
The back of my Gigagyte B760 motherboard (the white cable that runs to the backplate is a temperature sensor, the spot it sits on is not a coincidence....the CPU on the other side has similar hight as that rectangle in the middle of the backplate; the stock backplate is underneath):
Thermal view CPU in idle:
Uunfortunately the back plate reflects the surroundings, therefore the lowest reading is incorrect, the highest reading of 30°C is actually a reflection of my face on the surface of a bolt or on a screw.
However, the highest temp in picture - even if it is a relfection, is 30°C, so the red parts on the right are less warm than 30°C.
Thermal view XTU stress test at 250W for 5 minutes:
This is the interesting part, the back plate still reflects some, but it's real temperature is at about 50°C, even tho it is separated by a layer of non conductive plastic.
Most thermal cameras have an adaptive temperature scale, this is why same color will be shown as different temperatures, this is why on the left side you see 53°C shown as same color as 83°C which you see on the right side - both bright yellow color.
The VRM MOS never went over 55°C, i usually have one fan cooling teh VRM MOS and one that cools the back plate and the motherboard itself.
The distance i took pictures from is not ideal when recording high temperatures, bcoz the rising hot air, prevents an accurate reading.
The motherboard can get as hot as 98°C, at which point the CPU at 100°C with continuous thermal throttling and VRM MOS at 65°C. Yes, eventually the motherboard is the highest temperature in the system, or second to the highest.
It takes about 15minutes for teh motherboard to reach idle temps, while it takes 2 minutes for the VRM MOS to reach idle temps.
Continous 125W load looks like this:
And at those 125W and the situation as seen above, the gigabyte motherboard shows me this:
The real hot spots can not happen in an enviroment, which spreads the heat - for example an IHS prevents that, so does a heatsink, or the surface of the motherboard.
Only a material which is thermally non conductive, would allow hotspot where the temperature difference is very high.
wanna see the reality?
inspected as defective ->
got exchange new one ->
apply 'Intel MainLine' in new firmware (GIGABYTE mobo so even got much conservative value then others) ->
it still push Much insane voltages then Previous, Tons of error and instability.
not even 14900K kind hardcore one, it's just 13700K.
of Cource Each Defective Issue is got various cause, but as far as peoples in global experience and researched, those defective cause straight connect in to Fundamental cause from Intel,
either that's value from mobo or CPU, Seems Yield rate and Lottery of most of unlocKed CPU line ups weren't much suit with they're Goals in Clock.
even in bring insane limitations and lower the clocks and watercoolers, still somehow keep reach the throttling limit but keep kick-off the run, then earn damage the certain part of core.
either you got the superuser role or not a intel employee or contractor,
this kind post on forum doesn't much helped, looks like a troll to many intel customers in here.
still i can waste tons of time and money for 'Exchange Infinity ammount of CPU' from intel Distributors,
but they're don't had much Buffer Stocks, even i'd seen someone appeal the '5 times exchange but still defective' in the community.
at least in 'dictionary definition' pick the Intel CPU and Mobo is choice of customer like me.
i can't much got refund my rigs from either distributor or sellers at this rate
at this time, intel doesn't consider recall at all cause they don't have any 'alternate product' free from this issue same as cpu gate 'MELTDOWN-SPECTRE' cases.
but one thing i can sure is, if Intel doesn't recall the products, customers totally turn they're back from Intel eternity.
even in Intel got astronomical Federal Government subsidy, if they waste government money for recall the product instead of build a fab in America?
Uncle Sam will very mad at those.
if they refuse to recall then use those for Build a Fab?
no one will purchase 'credit default' state of intel product at that state so.. even in days become those fab start to mass productioning on customer products, it will remained as 'dead inventory' just as Boeing did.
if someone Intel Employee officially answer the statement on this issue, Please refund my CPU and mobo, then i'll quit out from Intel's Life.
@Keean wrote:Short version: Power Density
Density: each transistor might generate a certain amount of heat, so putting too many too close together will create a hotspot.
Power: is dependent on current (I^2 * R) so the more current the hotter a transistor will be. Too much current through too small a transistor will create a hotspot.
There is also thermal runaway as the resistance of silicon decreases with temperature. As the silicon gets hotter more current will flow for the same voltage, more current increases the temperature, hotter silicon has lower resistance, which allows more current to flow until failure...
....this is so beyond the topic.
"Power: is dependent on current "
No.....what is changing, as you mentioned yourself, is the resistance ....I^2 * R, bcoz of the temperature,
the VRM MOS = voltage regulator, feeds the CPU with variable voltage, and with rising resistance, need higher voltage, with higher voltage and same current = more power = more heat.
Resistance decides how high current can become, but to achieve a higher current, you need higher voltage...I= U/R
For a cold CPU, you can easily achieve higher current, for a warm CPU you will not see as high of a current, but higher voltage instead.
"so the more current the hotter a transistor will be".....
.....current is the result of voltage running through a resistance, the voltage decides the current in the first place, later resistance changes with temperature.
Higher voltage -> higher current-> higher power->more heat
"resistance of silicon decreases with temperature"
No....resistance of a metal increases not decreases .....the number is getting bigger....you are confusing something here....
You can limit the current, in order to not melt the CPU, bcoz high current at low voltage will result in huge voltage drop on elements that are not designed for it, there will be voltage drop NOT on the transistors, bit somehwere elese.....so the VRM MOS will try to compensate the voltage drop and feed the CPU with higher voltage, so that the core has it's 1,4V = that is what kills a CPU.
The record of 9GHz happend with a voltage of 1,85V, at over -200°C or so.
Yea, so at 300W i get a Vcore of 1,56V ~ 190Apms running through the point at which Vcore is being measured. Surprisingly VID is at 1,45V
That is literally the reason, at high power consumption, i get barely any better performance, bcoz its not the transsistors taht get the power.
At 1,85V in theory, i would get about 420W at the CPU
