Thermal sensor issue i7-7700k?

[CK7]

I have a brand new build; EVERYTHING NEW. i7-7700k is running at stock speeds. I have the RAM set to XMP for DDR4-2666. Motherboard is Asus Maximus IX Hero Z270.

I have found that the i7-7700k reports a momentary (a second or less) temperature spike +25 > 35 degrees Celsius anytime a program is opened, a webpage is opened, a background app runs etc. The temperature blip cascades through the cores in random order; not the same every time. This causes my heatsink fan to constantly cycle up and down. Temperatures otherwise report as steady, normal increases. Peak temperature under Prime95 blend test is 71 degrees Celsius.

Attempted solutions:

I have re-installed my heatsink and thermal paste with no change.

I have tried to manually set my fan speed in the bios. The only setting that avoids this issue is setting the temperature / fan at a constant (and loud) 80-100%. I've tried PWM and DC mode.

I have found a few user reports elsewhere on the web, all reasoning that it's just the way it is. I don't accept that. Opening a folder or browser should not spike temps +30 degrees. Not only is the fan cycling annoying, it puts undue stress on my fan; possibly shortening its lifespan.

What's the answer, if any? RMA?

[AElib]

Nah.

Always Blue + Green

[ASušt]

I'm not advertising, just saying that the pasture has only 2 sides.

[AElib]

I know what you meant, i was just joking.

[ASušt]

It's not a joke if I'm forced to buy a new motherboard and CPU .

At least team green didn't let us down.

[igara]

Hello intel.

Now I had 2 of your CPU's and the 2 of them had hitting problems,i had A 3Gen CPU and now this 7Gen.dont you check your products before you sell them to the market?or you just don't give a **** about your community.

I went all excited about my PC that cost me 2000$

I paid a premium price for this CPU (i7 7700k)

I paid a premium price for CPU Fan.(Noctua Nh-u12s)

I paid a premium price for my Case with a good airflow and fans.(Carbide Series® SPEC-ALPHA Mid-Tower Gaming Case — Black/Red)

I paid a premium price for a good motherboard with OC capabilitys(MSI Z270 GAMING M3)

now if intel was one of us with this issue wouldn't they be disappointed?

you are telling us that you don't recommend running this CPU OC'ed so why is it a K?

And By the way and I'm being honest here,you cant even Run this CPU on Stock 4.5Ghz without it jumping around to 86C+ unless you are messing up with your Voltage.

Just Check your stuff for the next time please and do a god damn effort to solve your problems.

[LCore]

I personally don't see what the problem is.

How can the CPU heat up +20c to 60c then straight back down to 40c within seconds. You would have to have a stupidly efficient cooler to do this.

I'd say it's how the temperature is being picked up from the CPU. This could be where the problem lies.

I have a 7700k and it does spike randomly on each core even when your not doing anything (doesn't mean background application aren't) But it doesn't spike anywhere near 80c let alone 100c.

But from a physic point of view I can't see the CPU temperature spiking that high and cooling down that quickly.

If it was a general problem then surly Intel would of highlighted this problem way before release.

[CCapt]

Hi Guys,

Sorry to show up late to the party. I'm a moderator at TomsHardware and the author of the Intel Temperature Guide - http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/id-1800828/intel-temperature-guide.html http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/id-1800828/intel-temperature-guide.html - mentioned earlier in this thread. I've been working on the topic of Intel processor temperatures for over 10 years, and have invested more than 5,000 hours of ongoing research and hands-on testing to help everyone understand this complicated topic. I've also been building, overclocking and modding PC's for over 20 years, and delidding since 3rd Generation Ivy Bridge. I'll say right up front that I do not have an Intel nondisclosure agreement, so I'm not constrained here, yet regardless of all my work, there's always more to learn about this topic.

I've spent the last several hours carefully reading through all 40 pages of this entire thread. I understand your frustrations, as our friends at Intel are prone to be somewhat vague and evasive, as if every statement has been pre-washed through the legal department. Nonetheless, there's a few items I'd like to bring to everyone's attention which will shed some light on the spiking and TIM problems, as well as clear up a few misconceptions, and perhaps offer a fresh perspective.

• Concerning the spiking problem, I noticed one item in particular that's been overlooked in this thread, which is "Speed Shift".

Spiking has always been present, however, as a few of you have already pointed out, it hasn't been so obvious on prior Generations due to several variables. Intel's specification for Digital Thermal Sensor (DTS) response time is 256 milliseconds, or about 1/4th of a second, so Core temperatures respond instantly to changes in load. Intel introduced Speed Shift technology with Skylake, then kicked it up a notch with Kaby Lake. Speed Shift was intended as an improvement over SpeedStep, so Speed Shift responds faster to changes in workload demands while being more energy efficient, but the downside is spiking. Also, excessive spiking is sometimes caused by unnecessary tray startups, processes and services, so it help to keep your software cleaned up.

Here's two links to our sister website, AnandTech, which describes Speed Shift:

Examining Intel's New Speed Shift Tech on Skylake: More Responsive Processors - http://www.anandtech.com/show/9751/examining-intel-skylake-speed-shift-more-responsive-processors Examining Intel's New Speed Shift Tech on Skylake: More Responsive Processors

Speed Shift v2: Speed Harder - http://www.anandtech.com/show/10959/intel-launches-7th-generation-kaby-lake-i7-7700k-i5-7600k-i3-7350k/3 Speed Shift v2: Speed Harder - Intel Launches 7th Generation Kaby Lake: 15W/28W with Iris, 35-91W Desktop and Mobile Xeo…

Speed Shift is also described in the Datasheets for 6th and 7th Generation processors in Section 4 - Power Management:

http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/datasheets/desktop-6th-gen-core-family-datasheet-vol-1.pdf http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/datasheets/desktop-6th-gen-core-family-datasheet-vol-1.pdf

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/core/7th-gen-core-family-desktop-s-processor-lines-datasheet-vol-1.html Datasheet, Vol. 1: 7th Gen Intel® Processor Family for S Platforms

It's interesting to note that as there's no distinction offered in BIOS between Speed Shift and SpeedStep, it can't be disabled or adjusted separately from SpeedStep. It may, however, be possible for Intel and it's motherboard partners to deploy microcode and BIOS updates to provide for different Speed Shift response levels and / or disable.

• Concerning the TIM problem:

The following is from "Silicon Lottery" - https://siliconlottery.com/collections/all/products/delid https://siliconlottery.com/collections/all/products/delid - which is actually a real company based outside Houston, Texas, who tests, bins and professionally delids processors. The following is their figures on how much delidding typically improves Core temperatures on 3rd through 7th Generation Quad Core "K" variants, which will give you an idea of just how bad the TIM problem really is:

7th Generation ... Kaby Lake - 12° to 25°C

6th Generation ... Skylake - 8°C to 18°C

5th Generation ... Broadwell - 8°C to 18°C

4th Generation ... Devil's Canyon - 7°C to 15°C

4th Generation ... Haswell - 10°C to 25°C

3rd Generation ... Ivy Bridge - 10°C to 25°C

In all fairness, before we jump to any conclusions and send out the lynch mob to string up the guys at Intel, let's keep in mind that besides being expense conscious, they also have some of the finest PhD's, thermodynamicists and engineers in the world on their payroll, so let's consider the challenges and limitations they've come up against. Here's an article which details the drawbacks of soldering these small Die sizes:

The Truth about CPU Soldering - http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/ http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/

• Concerning Intel's Thermal Specifications, there's a few of you who have some misconceptions, so let's get that cleared ...

[DS3]

My main problem isnt with the temp spikes.

I can understand the technology and the reason for those spikes, my problem is how come they arent creating some kind of compensation mechanism that will prevent the cpu and case fans to go crazy with every spike.

I mean, its only a matter of some code, if the temp spikes for less than a second whats the point of fans going full speed for that second.

[AElib]

I dont know what Board you have but you can adjust Fans in Bios settings like i do ( Q-Fan Configuration )

[DS3]

I have an Asus Z170M-PLUS.

Obviously I know about fan configuration in BIOS.

The problem is that temp spiking for a second isnt something you can configure your fans to.

If for example my system running 20 degrees the fans rpm is about 700.

When the temp spike to 40 degrees and a second later gets back to 20, the rpm of the fan goes up to 1500 and back to 700 in a matter of second.

Its like sitting next to a vaccum cleaner...

Only thing I could configure is for fans to run at 40% const up to 50 degrees, but thats just ineffective use of cpu/case cooling.

[LRibe2]

Hi.

Very good post.

tottaly agree and we all should keep that in mind before starting a war for no reason at all.

We have to understand the hardware limitations before assuming a malfunction. And after carefully doing the math and hardware correct setup, if there is overheating for no reason, then start thinking about a replacement.

Came to this thread with the same doubts and after hours of reading to better understand this and other gen CPUs, cooling limitations, processor technologies, setups and intel data and answers, I've realised that this unit is working as expected.

Regards.

[DBux]

No reason at all? Are you kidding?

This processor has spikes more evident (more high) than precedents, and this makes it's cooling systems work as crazy. Why the hell Intel didn't pay atention to this obvious problem? Also, thanks to crazy fans go up & down, we discovered innecesary and dangerous high temps because bad TIM... perfect, especially in a expensive K processor designed to take high performance (and temps) with overclock. Well done Intel, no reason to complain, of course.

And thank you a lot, CompuTronix!

[idata]

Many thanks for taking the time to write this very informative post! I'll need some time to digest it properly, but I do have a couple of questions in the meantime.

I do understand that soldering the die to the case for the small i7 die sizes has problems and that this is why Intel uses a thermal compound instead. I also know that Intel has a whole lot more expertise than any of us, so it is puzzling that the company would use an inferior TIM for the sake of a few cents (for example, the Coollaboratory Liquid Pro Liquid Metal Thermal Paste retails for under $10 for a tube that would do multiple CPUs ... so the cost to Intel would be negligible). Is the reason for not using this sort of thermal compound due to issues with long-term stability? ... and if so, do you have any idea why Intel does not just say so?

Secondly, what is the point of selling an unlocked CPU if the overclocking potential is so limited (at least without delidding)? Do you think that this this just an easy way to make more money?

Cheers

Robert

[AElib]

Many thanks for taking the time to write this very informative post!

It was a Copy and Paste

[ASušt]

"Do you think that this this just an easy way to make more money?"

YES!

It's only that! 146% sure.

ZeoxZariX

I tried to put in a delay, before fans ramp up, but still, sometimes the delay is not where I want it to be.

[CCapt]

In answer to your first question, it's explained in the link I posted: The Truth about CPU Soldering - http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/ http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/

As per your second and third questions, I can't speculate regarding Intel's decision making processes, except to say they're a giant and powerful corporation.

[idata]

I understand the reasons for not using solder ... there are other articles that explain the issues (one of which, not mentioned in your article, is the smaller die size on Kaby Lake). My question was not about solder, but about high quality thermal compounds like the Coollaboratory liquid metal compound. The only logical reason for Intel not using this has to be long term stability ... but with all of Intel's resources, I would be surprised if it was unable to come up with a TIM that performed better than the one it uses and was still stable for 5+ years. Anyone running their CPU at stock frequencies would never see any degradation, and overclockers know that what they do stresses their CPU and will therefore reduce its life.

I think your position is "Intel Knows Best" ... but we know from past releases that even Intel has messed up on its thermal solutions and has released a new variant to fix the problem. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this happens with Kaby Lake.

Cheers

Robert

[CCapt]

Here's the breakdown:

Indium Solder - 81.8 W/mk (Used on 2nd Gen Sandy Bridge and earlier)

Liquid Metal TIM

Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut - 73.0 W/mk (Newest Product)

CoolLaboratory Liquid Ultra - 38.4 W/mk

CoolLaboratory Liquid Pro - 32.6 W/mk

Typical Silicon TIM

Arctic Silver 5 - 9.0 W/mk

Gelid GC Extreme: 8.5 W/mk

Arctic Cooling MX4 - 8.5 W/mk

[TGrab1]

From my experience Thermal Grizzly does not perform as well as liquid ultra/pro. So not sure why it is showing a better watt per unit area.

I have tried both on a delid chip and the Liquid Ultra does a much better job of moving the heat to the IHS. Now when it comes to the IHS to block there is not as much difference and the Grizzly while not as cool (maybe 3-5C warmer) does a much better job in the long run on the top of the IHS.

Plus it doesn't have all the side effects to staining the block/ihs or removing the etching/writing on the ihs.

That being said though I still challenge the w/mk numbers for the liquid products. Do you have a theory to why they perform so much better, but are showing half the w/mk of the thermal grizzly?

*edit* nvm this is a new liquid metal from Grizzly line. That would explain the difference. Looks like I will need to order some and give it a go.

[idata]

Coollaboratory Liquid Pro has a thermal conductivity of 80W/mK ... where are you getting your data from ???

http://www.coollaboratory.com/product/coollaboratory-liquid-pro/ Coollaboratory Liquid Pro – Coollaboratory

[idata]

"If your processor is at or near Throttle temperature, it's already too hot. The consensus among highly experienced and well informed system builders and overclockers, is that cooler is better for ultimate stability, performance and longevity. As such, all agree that it's wise to observe a reasonable thermal limit below Tj Max. So regardless of your rig's environmental conditions, system configuration, workloads or any other variables, sustained Core temperatures above 80°C aren't recommended."

A sustained core temperatures above 80C is very high and I think few of us would be happy running our CPUs at these sustained temperatures. However the major issue on this thread has to do with temperature spikes. Do you think running the CPU with average core max (over a running 10 seconds, say) at or below 80C is OK, even with spikes going close to 100C?

Could you tell us what thermal compound you've used on your delidded CPU? I'm thinking of the Tom's Hardware articles that I posted on page 42.

Thanks

Robert