IA: Electrical Design Point/Other (ICCmax, PL4, SVID, DDR RAPL)

[tsilu]

i was thinkering with 13600k on avx load on prime 95 and cought 230w power draw while pl1and pl2 have set to 181w motherboard is msi mag z790 tomahawk ddr5 wifi and i got log files from hw info until i got ablue screen saying service system exception, it happened in cpu lite load mode 1 which is common to get bluescreen under load and if i change it to mode 2 i wont get blue screen, but the problem is 230w power draw, if anyone intrested i attached the log and it happened when IA: Electrical Design Point/Other (ICCmax, PL4, SVID, DDR RAPL) showed yes, you can find it in the last rows, if you know what is happening i really appreciate if you explain, thank you so much

[pressed_for_time]

If pl1 and pl2 are set to 181w then these are not the Intel Default Settings (IDS) for your CPU. Prime95 with an AVX load is a severe test of CPU and system stability. Not running the standard settings for your CPU means that the results can be unpredictable.

MSI have a history of not applying Intel Default Settings in the BIOS. For your processor Short Duration Power Limit(W) - pl2 - should be 181W, Long Duration Power Limit(W) - pl1 - setting is 125W. Another item to check is CPU Current Limit (iccMax). This should be 200 A which explains why under heavy load 230w power draw is possible.

[tsilu]

i left everything at auto and intel default setting, and icc max is at 200a, pl1 and 2 at auto and set intel default limit on the oc setting, and when i go to cpu advanced configuration it shows pl1 and pl2 at default are set to 181w, this is not something i chaanged or thinkered with, but it still pulls 250w on the latest test i did, if you review the system telemetry which i added to the post, you clearly see pl1 is set to 181w, and voltages stay under 1.2v but still wattage goes wild, i cant find any way to limit the cpu and i have latest drivers latest bios, i explained exactly the things i changed, i agree with you this must be a motherboad problem, when you set a limit and itwouldnt take effect, it is clearly motherboard job to do it, also i think found a conclution why 13th and 14th gen causing problems, motherboards use average to inforce the limits and intel uses max rates in their data sheets for these cpus, also they put a shutdown max i think, motherboards hit the average which means at 100ms cpu pulls like 110w and next 100ms it pulls 230w and their average in time becomes 181w, but when cpu hits a predefind wattage treshhold, it drops the frequency and because the voltage and current is still too high, it causes instability, or at least i think this is what going on with my cpu, when i set the logs to pull every 2 second, everything is fine on the logs even when it crashes, but as soon as i change the sample rating to 100ms, you see the true pictures, i really bellieve intel 13 and 14 gen are amazing cpus but motherboard settings are screwing them over, the thing is if i change cpu lite load to mode2, i wont get any blue screen or any crash, but logs become much more alarming if i change the sample rate to 100ms, if i set sample rate to hwinfo default 2second, everything seems fine again, clearly motherboard manufacturers are doing something wrong, if i was intel, i would have sued motherboard producers for this because clearly controling amp and voltage is the job of the motherboard, not cpu manufacturer, cpu asks for a voltage, it is the job of the motherboard to force the limits, this is all what i think i dont know how much of it is correct

[Davu]

Hey! So, the little brother 14600K is slightly more efficient than the 13600K, but honestly, they’re basically the same CPU. I’ve overclocked mine — 5.8 GHz on all P-cores and 4.4 GHz on the E-cores — and under AVX load it pulls around 230W at full load. But I’ve got a great solution: I’m using the Arctic Liquid Freezer III 360mm, which comes with a contact frame included. Even at 230W full load, this cooler keeps everything under control — temps never go above 80 °C even during heavy AVX workloads. I’ve also found some settings that might work well for you to keep it cool. Try a bit of undervolting and let me know how it goes. Here’s an example you can use as a reference.

Undervolt your i5 14600K for more FPS and Lower Temperature! - YouTube

If you want my honest opinion, removing too much current from the CPU makes it unstable — because it's actually the current that often keeps it stable. My advice? Get the Arctic Liquid Freezer III. I have the 360mm version, but if your case supports the 420mm, go for it. Install the contact frame and you’re all set.

[tsilu]

it is not about having a stable pc, i am trying to understand how it all works, and how it can goes pass intel default setting while i choose the default setting, i am trying to learn, otherwise all i need to do is to choose cpu lite load mode 2 and leave the rest at default and have a pefectly healthy pc with max temp under avx load at 85c

[Davu]

We can figure out how much current makes a CPU stable, and how much extra performance we can squeeze out… But lithography and design? That’s a whole different story. Right now, there are only three companies in the world capable of understanding, reproducing, and making CPU design profitable. If it were that simple, we’d have many more companies able to produce CPUs. Think about Intel — it took them 5 years to figure out how to make a CPU with 3D cache (even with engineering teams doing reverse engineering 24/7), and according to leaks, they’ll only release something similar next year. AMD, whose standard processors are much weaker than Intel’s hybrid architecture, still hasn’t figured out how to produce CPUs with a similar design. And who knows how long it’ll take — rumors say AMD might only introduce a hybrid big.LITTLE-style architecture around 2027–2028. So even with teams of engineers working on reverse engineering 24/7, it’ll take them something like 8–9 years? If understanding how CPUs are made were really that easy… XD

( In your case, there might be some BIOS setting enabled — like Multicore Enhancement — that’s overriding your manual changes. This happened to a friend of mine once. Look for anything similar, though it might be named differently depending on your motherboard brand ) Try enable intel default setting too!

[tsilu]

i cleared the c mos, update the bios, so basically out of the box experience, checked to make sure intel default setting is enabled, still it showed max cpu pakage power in hwinfo latest version with refresh rate of 100ms around 250w sometimes even more, what i meant by understanding is, what setting can override intel default setting pl1 and pl2, also i even reinstalled the windows to rule out os setting effect, basically this is the most out of the box experience i could had, i even didnt enabled xmp to see if it might effect cpu pakage power draw

[Davu]

Hey, what motherboard do you have? Anyway, it’s definitely something in the BIOS… that’s exactly the issue. Many motherboards push CPUs way too hard out of the box. There must be some setting that’s maxing things out. Have you checked if there’s something in the BIOS like 'Multicore Enhancement', 'Unleash', or something similar? The power draw is way too high — I told you, even with a pretty aggressive overclock, I don’t reach those levels

( I’m not talking about in-game usage, because in games it consumes much less. But with that overclock, under heavy AVX loads, I don’t reach your power draw — I max out at 230W under full load with an OC)

[tsilu]

it is msi mag z790 tomahawk ddr5 wifi, and yes, i checked everything i could think of, i checked for multi core enhancement or any other setting might resemble porformance or turbo, anything out of usual setting for intel z chipset and i couldnt find anything, i even did contact intel suppourt, but they closet my case without any answer, the irony is i never even toched an amd cpu in my life while my work is related to computer asembly, i always pushed all of my costomers to go with intel and they dont even bother to say anything just closing my suppourt request, i wont ever again recomend intel to anyone ever again

[Davu]

This problem is 100% the motherboard — it’s pushing the CPU way beyond what it should. Do you have a BIOS update available that you could try, just to see if something glitched? It’s rare, but sometimes a BIOS can start misbehaving. For example, I personally stopped using MSI because, when it comes to overclocking, their motherboards started acting up and not doing exactly what they were told. After 25 years with MSI, I switched to back Gigabyte AORUS. I know ROG boards are the best for overclocking, but AORUS costs less and has features that can rival ROG XD.

[tsilu]

i dont care about my problem anymore, this is not the way to run a company, today i proposed the first amd pc to my client, and never gonna propose another intel product to anyone, also thank you so much for your time and help, and wish you the best

[Davu]

Is it possible you have the power limits set to 'unlimited' in XTU? ICC Max… If that’s active, it’ll always push those values.