TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.

[dougaMAT]

hello.

I have a Core i9-13900K and an ASRock Z790 Steel Legend

In this combination, TjMAX is set to 115°C by default.
Therefore, even if the temperature reaches 100°C, the thermal throttle may not work and the temperature may rise to 115°C.

Is there any problem if I continue to use it as it is?
Also, is the product warranty for the CPU valid?

[dougaMAT]

I am very relieved. I can't understand the nuance in any way through the translation site.
I'm sorry for all the help, but please let me know if there are any mistakes.

Of course, I saw @AndrewG_Intel's answer. So, I have confirmed that an end user changing the TjMAX in the same way as ASRock would void the warranty as it would constitute overclocking.

However, I could not tell if the TjMAX = 115°C setting is inappropriate for the Core i9-13900K, since the document describing the temperature limit for the Core i9-13900K is still in production. I also wanted to know if ASRock's default setting, which is reflected regardless of the end user's will, is considered a change in TjMAX.

Therefore, I asked whether or not ASRock's default setting is considered a TjMAX change, as well as confirming that processor temperature limit = TCC Activation = TjMAX on the Core i7-12700K, for which a datasheet is already available.

As for the other questions, I too think TjMAX should be the same as TCC Activation, and I do not believe that Intel allowed ASRock to open up TjMAX, but wanted to confirm that these are the same thoughts as ICS.

[dougaMAT]

Hello.

I have a report about ASRock's TjMAX = 115°C setting.

ASRock contacted me about this and informed me that they have decided to change their policy of setting TjMAX to 115°C on Intel 700 series chipsets and later motherboards and will lower it to 100°C in a future BIOS update.

Along with this notification, I have confirmed that the BIOS = 3.10 I received for the Z790 Steel Legend WiFi sets TjMAX to 100°C for the Core i9-13900K. Currently this BIOS is distributed on ASRock's website.

I believe this policy change by ASRock is the right one.
ASRock said they are aware of the discussion in this thread, so I believe they changed their policy thanks to @n_scott_pearson and @AndrewG_Intel's answers. Thanks a lot for your tremendous help.

I recently asked @AndrewG_Intel an additional question, and I understand that is a difficult question to answer, involving another company. I am happy with ASRock's policy change and generally understand Intel's policy, so if your decision is to not answer, I will accept that.

Thanks to this thread, I have had much better results than I could have imagined.
Once again, I would like to thank you all for your help.

[AndrewG_Intel]

Hello @dougaMAT

Thank you very much for all the details regarding the feedback from ASRock*. We are glad to know that you have received a satisfactory answer from them regarding the TjMAX setting.

Because we understand that our previous answer stating that "the warranty will be void if the end users set TjMAX to 115°C" may seem to focus on a scenario where is the user (and not a default setting from the OEM) who is changing the TjMAX, just in case we will proceed to double check this additional inquiry that you have:

"If ASRock's default setting, which is reflected regardless of the end user's will, is considered a change in TjMAX and if the warranty will also be void due to that default setting".

We do know that ASRock already informed you that they are changing this limit setting for TjMAX, but we think that you are still looking for an official response and this may also apply to future scenarios where this behavior with the default TjMAX setting is observed on different motherboards, so it may help other users to clarify when they run into the same concern.

Once we have more details available, we will post them here in the thread.

Best regards,

Andrew G.

Intel Customer Support Technician

[dougaMAT]

Hello @AndrewG_Intel

If you could answer that question, that would be great.
As you said, the answer will help to solve the problem for end users who face the same problem in the future.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[FlashAlliance]

The official intel documentation for my chipset 495/595 states JTMax is indeed 110°C (Table 10-2) Intel® 495 Series Chipset Family On-Package PCH Datasheet, Volume 1 of 2 

As for your chip... the documentation is a bit vague however Intel® 700 Series Chipset Family Platform Controller Hub Datasheet, Volume 1 of 2 reads the trip point (TJMax) to be 110°C as well... Page 45 (6.2)

I too was curious about my asrock motherboard, but it doesn't seem as bad of an error if it was 100°C, however, the values are still out of spec, and mb owners should address that. 

[dougaMAT]

Hello @FlashAlliance

The TjMax you stated is for the chipset (PCH), and is different from the Processor TjMax discussed here.

The TjMax of a processor varies by product, but can be found in the "Tjunction" on the product page or in the processor datasheet.

Intel® Core™ i9-13900K Processor (Tjunction)
13th Generation Intel® Core™ and Intel® Core™ 14th Generation Processors Datasheet, Volume 1 of 2 (Table 20)

[n_scott_pearson]

I agree with @dougaMAT; since manufacturing processes are drastically different for PCH vs. CPU, you cannot draw any correlation for CPU Tjmax levels from the levels you see for the PCH.

...S

[Fede59]

ASRock's behaviour is strange to say the least. I use a Z690 Taichi motherboard with an i7-13700K. Early bios's allowed unlimited CPU operation by default. After some comments about this on the ASRock forum the later bios (like the current one, 14.04 of 22 November) now allow the CPU parameters to be set to Intel's standard values (base power 125 W, turbo power 253 W). Despite this my CPU, under stress, reaches up to 105°C without any blocking or throttling.

Are your BIOS CPU's settings, in the OC section/CPU, on Intel standard or unlimited?

[dougaMAT]

Hello @Fede59

For reference, on my Z790 Steel Legend WiFi (BIOS = 3.10), the power limit is set to PL1 = PL2 = 253W by default.

I think the processor temperature in your environment reaches 105°C because TjMAX is set above 105°C. ASRock told me they will change the default value of TjMAX on Z790 and later, but motherboards before Z690 are not subject to it.

The power limit is the threshold for Over Power Protection (OPP) which limits processor power, OPP does not monitor processor temperature. Since the Thermal Control Circuit (TCC) will not function until TjMAX is reached, the processor temperature may rise to the TjMAX setting if the processor is not cooled sufficiently.

As for the power limit, there are many motherboards, not only ASRock, that are set to a value higher than Intel's recommendation or unlimited. It inhibits the OPP from running and allows the processor to consume more power. However, I do not see this setting as much of a problem since Intel does not set a minimum and maximum value for the power limit and it is mainly the motherboard that is at risk with the power limit open.

If you want your TCC to function according to Intel's specifications, I think you should set TjMAX to 100°C.

[Fede59]

Right, in my AIDA64 the TjMax Temp is at 115°C.

Anyway, I have air cooling so I slightly undervolt-ed both P-Core's and E-Core's so I don't have temp problems in idle and under stress with very little or no loss in performance.

As for your settings, isn't your PL1 supposed to be at 125W?

[dougaMAT]

In conclusion, your processor reaches 105°C without throttling because TjMAX is set to 115°C.

As for you addressing the temperature issue by lowering the voltage of your processor, I have nothing to say about that as you are doing so at your own risk. If you want to enable TCC protection as per Intel's specification, I would recommend setting TjMAX to 100°C.

The 12th generation Core datasheet states that PL1 = PBP is the "recommended value". This is probably the same for the 13th generation, so the recommended value of PL1 for the Core i9-13900K and Core i7-13700K is 125W.
However, this is a "recommended value"; Intel states in the datasheet "No Specifications for Min/Max PL1/PL2 values".

12th Generation Intel Core Processors Datasheet, Volume 1 (pages 92-95)
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/processors/core/core-technical-resources.html

If you want to know Intel's view on setting power limits, I suggest you ask ICS in a new thread.

[n_scott_pearson]

First of all, just to be clear (since the message didn't seem to get through when I detailed it before), if you can read a temperature reading above 100c, then your 'true' Tjmax/TCC assertion temperature is NOT 100c. Whatever the highest temperature reading is that you can see, that is your 'true' Tjmax/TCC assertion temperature. Remember that the DTS circuits in each core generate an unsigned digital value that represents the number of degrees Celsius that the measured temperature is below the 'true' Tjmax/TCC Assertion temperature. The 'true' Tjmax/TCC Assertion temperature is represented by the value 0 (zero). Since the value is unsigned, this means that readings above the 'true' Tjmax/TCC Assertion temperature cannot be represented. As well, as I said before, for Desktop (as opposed to Mobile/Embedded) processors, the 'true' Tjmax/TCC Assertion temperature is  NOT locked at 100c; it may be slightly higher or lower, depending upon the individual part's nuances (leakage levels, etc.). During the silicon validation process, the 'true' Tjmax/TCC Assertion temperature is determined and 'programmed' into the part using a number of internal set-once fuses).

Ok, long-winded but necessary. Now to the crux of the matter...

It is my assertion that no motherboard should, by default, set the Tjmax value to anything above the processor's 'true' Tjmax/TCC Assertion temperature. We know that they do this to make their motherboard look better than the competition, but I assert that it is wrong and they shouldn't. By doing this, they are, by default, overclocking your processor - and doing so without telling you that they are doing so. If you want to make the decision to do this, so be it, but most people don't and they shouldn't have this done to them without their knowledge or their consent.

Now, I say that this is 'my assertion' because I am retired and it is thus not up to me what Intel's policy is going to be on this matter. However, if I purchased a motherboard that did this and I didn't know that this was the case, then if my processor fails and Intel is not going to replace it under warranty, I am going to be suing the motherboard manufacturer for the replacement cost of my processor - and fighting for this to be declared a class-action lawsuit to help other owners that are in the same boat. Bottom line, the motherboard manufacturers should think very carefully about the liability that they are creating for themselves by setting their defaults above the 'true' Tjmax/TCC Assertion temperature.

Clear as mud?

...S

[dougaMAT]

Hello @n_scott_pearson

I think I understand the process by which the "true TjMAX (DTS=0)" as you call it is determined, but I recognize that whatever the "true temperature" is when DTS reports 0, it is calibrated to the maximum operating temperature in the product specification by TEMPERATURE_TARGET recorded in MSR (0x1A2).

I am aware that the maximum operating temperature in the product specification is the same temperature as TjMAX and TCC Activation. So, in the case of a Core i7-12700K with TjMAX of 100°C, I understand that when DTS reports 0, XTU and other applications will refer to the MSR value and indicate 100°C.

As stated in the datasheet, TjMAX is inherently unchangeable, but with unlocked processor and chipset combinations, it is possible to raise TjMAX up to 115°C. This setting does not merely change the MSR's TEMPERATURE_TARGET, but also extends the measurement range of DTS. We understand that this DTS measurement range extension and raising the TCC Activation temperature is an action that constitutes overclocking.

I am also aware that TjMAX, the maximum temperature specified in the product specifications, is not necessarily set at 100°C. In fact, the TjMAX of the Core i9-12900KS is 90°C.
ASRock, with whom I was discussing the TjMAX temperature of the Core i9-13900K, finally said they would change the default setting to 100℃. I interpreted that as conforming to Intel's product specifications, but we will have to wait and see if that is really the case.

I agree with your assertion on this issue.
I think the process you describe of suing the motherboard manufacturer is legitimate, but many users faced with a TjMAX-modified processor failure will not know the cause and will simply claim product warranty from Intel as a product defect in the processor. Those who are supposedly responsible should not be allowed to impose it on others.

[Alberto_R_Intel · Accepted solution]

Hello dougaMAT, I just received an update on this matter.

In regard to your inquiry, if it comes with a setting by default then is not considered as overclocking, Altering clock frequency and/or voltage will be a modification on default settings and therefore overclock and voids the warranty. TJ max is basically the temperature where the CPU will start to throttle (reduce performance to cool down). So this TJ Max is going to depend on the configuration of other components including a cooling system for example. The CPU might or might not be able to handle 115 C, with that being said, altering any specification outside the default configuration is considered a modification, therefore if any issue appears and we encounter that is caused by such modification we can deny the warranty.

Regards,

Albert R.

Intel Customer Support Technician

[dougaMAT]

Hello @Alberto_R_Intel

Thanks for the answer. I understand ICS's view that even if a motherboard manufacturer raises the TjMAX to improve performance, as long as that is the default setting, it is not considered overclocking.

I find that view a bit strange given that we lose our warranty if we do the same setting, but I interpret it as a policy to protect the end user. I believe that policy is beneficial to us.

Unless I am mistaken in my understanding or interpretation, I think my question is now resolved.
After a little time, if there are no objections, I would like to accept your answer as a solution and end the thread.

[iameatingjam]

Seems dangerous to me....

[FlashAlliance]

The TJMax is indeed 100 °C. I would assume most higher end boards… (advertised for Ocing) are set to 115 and should be changed.

[Alberto_R_Intel]

Hello dougaMAT, You are very welcome, thank you very much for your response.

Yes, you are correct. Basically, it is always recommended to use the system at stock configurations with the default BIOS settings for the Intel® warranty to be validated on your platform.

Thank you very much for accepting our answer as a solution and now, as per your request, we will proceed to close the case.

Any other inquiries, do not hesitate to contact us again.

Regards,

Albert R.

Intel Customer Support Technician