i9-13900K : very frequent crashes (Windows 11) with apps, games and benches

[LoloWiwi]

Hi,

I built a setup in April 2023 with :

- Intel Core i9-13900K

- Asus ROG Maximus Z790 Hero

- 2x32 GB Corsair Vengeance 6600 MHz

- Asus ROG 4090

- Asus ROG Thor 850 Watts

From the very beginning, I had sometimes BSODs, and several apps/games crashing very "reliably".

Even though the PC: 

- Not overclocked (no XMP, so RAM is running at 4800 MHz)

- No Tweaks of any sort in the Bios / default values from Asus Bios.

- Windows 11 Pro 10.0.22621

- Windows / Drivers / Bios are up to date with latest versions as of today.

The tests :

- Prime95 : with smallest and small FFT (to only test CPU and CPU cache) -> gives FATAL ERROR (prime numbers errors) on some CPU cores after a few minutes. 

- Cinebench R23 in single core : no problem, no crash during the 10min run

- Cinebench R23 in multi-core : crashes after 2 to 30 seconds systematically.

- GPU tests are fine, they complete with no crash (Furmark)

- Memtest86 : did several runs on the mem at 4800 and 6600 -> no errors, all tests PASS.

- a few games such as Cyberpunk 2077, Horizon Zero Dawn : almost systematically crash when launched.

A couple of days ago, I realized that it's probably the CPU: 

- I use an app for 3D Printing called a "slicer" who prepares the file for 3D printing that would consistently crash on my Windows 11 setup during slicing (after 5 to 10 seconds max), but not on a virtual machine installed with VirtualBox (Windows 10)

- Somebody advised me to try to set the Affinity for the CPU Cores/Threads in Windows 11.

- Also, I found a lot of reports in forums/reddit about problems with i9-13900K...

Since then, when I set the Affinity of the apps for only a few cores:

- Bambu Studio slicing fine, no crash whatsoever if affinity set to 8 first (CPU0 to CPU7)

- Cyberpunk 2077, Horizon Zero Dawn : they both run fine when affinity set to 8 first (CPU0 to CPU7), but crash as soon as I change affinity back to all cores/threads.

- Cinebench multi-core : systematically crashes no matter what subset of cores/threads I set.

Weirdly enough, I tried the Intel Processor Diagnostic Tool: it always passes, but I don't trust its results, since I've so many other apps/games crashing, and reports by people on the web...

So, I need help please with that, I can't trust my CPU even though I need my PC for work every day...

Intel SSU report attached.

[LoloWiwi]

OK, thanks.
What should be a good min/max range under idle/simple tasks (web browsing, editing documents) and heavy load tasks (video generation, parallel tasks such as 3D rendering, etc.) ? 

[Aryan-31]

idle around <1V
Full load 3.6V-1.4V 
Max voltage: 1.4V such that processor lasts for 6yrs and runs moderately cool enough

[LoloWiwi]

Thanks Aryan for your piece of advice.

At this point, I decided to bring this to r/intel on Reddit to get broader feedback and know what to do next :

https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/16vp5kn/i913900k_instability_crashes_and_svid_behavior/

[DeividA_Intel]

Hello LoloWiwi, 

Thanks for all the information provided. You mentioned that you opened a Reddit post, I would like to know if you would like to close this thread or continue with the support.

If you want to continue, please run and attach the report from the Intel® Processor Diagnostic Tool:

• https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/download/15951/intel-processor-diagnostic-tool.html

Regards,  

Deivid A.  

Intel Customer Support Technician  

[LoloWiwi]

Hi Deivid,

Thanks for your reply.

First, should I attach the IPDT report when SVID Behavior = "auto" or "Intel's Fail Safe", or it doesn't change anything?

Second : I got some answers on Reddit (for example, disabling MCE in Bios, but when I do disable it but SVID Behavior is at "auto", I have again the app/games crashes).

What i'd like to understand is :

- What does SVID Behavior really do ? It's hard to find in depth infos about the BIOS params (just very shallow explanations here and there)...

- Is it a problem with my i9-13900K that has to be slightly over-volted to be stable ? I've seen many influencers (YouTube) undervolting it for a much better heat dissipation and lower consumption, but none saying that they have to over-volt it to just have it stable...

When I say stable, I specifically mean when multi-threaded apps are launched.

Because again:

- I don't OC my PC, I leave all BIOS settings to default (out of the box Asus Maximus Z790 Hero)

- I set the affinity to just a few threads (UC0 to UC3 or UC0 to UC8) --> all the apps/games run perfectly fine

- As soon as I don't set the affinity (so all the apps/games use all 32 threads available by default) --> some apps/games systematically crash, and it's very reproducible...

Thanks

Laurent

[CorpsOG]

I think Intel need to step up and fix these problems with their chip! seems its not just a 1 in a bunch unlucky fault.... looks like some bad craftsmanship or too lazy to sound the horn that someone stuffed up in production but sent and stocked all these chips on the shelf knowing that they have faults / compatibility issues / power and temperature problems... these are a lot of problems for an extremely expensive, supposed top of the line, king of the food chain CPU!!!!! i cant believe intel has the gull to keep selling and stocking this is atrociously faulty chip and pretend its not their fault and come up with a solution. shame on you's! expected much better, i guess its come that time where ya cant trust in buying Intel's top of the line products without worrying if you've thrown money down the toilet. I'm certainly not purchasing anymore future intel releases until multiple well known and well reputable consumers have tested multiple chips thoroughly, Heck I'm actually contemplating moving it AMD tbh with ya. newer things get or the higher they shoot it just seems intel drop the ball or make it worse. 

[DimiMit]

Fully agree…

[seitam]

Hello @LoloWiwi 

I've been reading recent posts related to 13900K and 13900KF trying to figure out any fixes for the problems I have and thank god I found your post.

Many apps are crashing constantly.. cannot play any game (rip cyberpunk, cant even launch), for other games max gameplay is 10 minutes. All apps crash - spotify, discord, even developer tools like vscode or intellij.

Even now I have to write this reply using Notepad because I have no time to reply because of contant crash. Some Tabs from Firefox crashes constantly for some sites, and this is one of them (I tried Edge, same errors).

I have tested using memtest and no errors found.

I found some "WORKAROUNDS" for specific apps, i.e. Path of Exile - this is game and there are many people complaining about crashes, all of them uses high end CPU and the fix is set the Affinity fo this specific app to use Efficiency cores only (cores from 16 to 31 for I9-13900) - https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3408111/page/5#p25062465

Looks like I am the one of the unlucky guys... should I open a new thread? Or can join you here? Can any mod guide me? Do I need to reach RMA?

[sibidharan]

Our situations are same... I am also running with efficiency cores only! I am opening a new thread here but this forum is marking me as spam no idea why!

[AlHill]

My i9-13900K  with Windows 11 Pro, with >30 applications installed, and >30 stand-alone applications, has not crashed once.

Just saying...

Doc (not an Intel employee or contractor)
[Maybe Windows 12 will be better]

[sibidharan]

Question #708200 “General Protection Fault during boot in initrd...” : Questions : Ubuntu (launchpad.net)

I initially thought it was kernel bug in Linux until the same thing happened in windows also! Read this please.

[LoloWiwi]

@sibidharan : I'm with you man, I know the nightmare you are going through

 Do you have an Asus MB? (they have this "SVID Behavior" param that is mentioned in this thread).

@AlHill : sorry, not enough info to draw any conclusion here. Motherboard brand+model ? Using apps that rely heavily on multi-threading? Have you tried Cinebench R23 in Multithread? Any changes in Bios default params ? Maybe you were lucky with the "silicon lottery" for your i9-13900K.

[sibidharan]

@LoloWiwi I do have an Asus Prime Z790P WIFI MB. I will check this, but I read your thread on reddit, I am still investigating if it hurts the processor more. However, will give it a swirl. 

[sibidharan]

I have just used the SVID Intel Fail Safe, and it worked, booted with 24c 32t. But what now? Why is it working only with Fail Safe? Should we conclude that this processor is faulty or is it the motherboard who should do something about this? I am thinking about asking my vendor for a replacement whatsoever.

Update 1:

After booting with SVID Intel Fail Safe, my servers are crashing randomly. SVID behaviour can mask the issue, but I believe the underlying issue still is there and replacing is a good option. With only efficiency cores, VMs not crashing. 

[LoloWiwi]

Too bad if it still crashes, even with SVID Behavior = "Intel Fail Safe"...

Your issue ressembles mine (seems to be a problem with at least one of the P-Cores).

On my side I did monitor Vcore for a while with SVID Behavior = "Intel Fail Safe", while using several applications and it doesn't seem to overvolt the CPU too much (average is around 1.48V).

Have you tried to disable MCE (MultiCore Enhancement) in BIOS, and see how it goes?

And with XMP disabled?

Still, I'd really like to hear back from Intel experts... There are so many thread on the web talking about stability issues with the i9-13900K... and no proposal to RMA so far.

Funny to have an "overclockable" CPU that doesn't even stand still while not overclocked...

I strongly believe my next build will be AMD... Having issues with a CPU is one thing (it can happen, nothing is perfect), but how the vendor handles the issue is key...

[sibidharan]

Yes these are the major BIOS settings I tuned for stable server environment

XMP off (enabling XMP always end up in more frequent crashes, so I disabled XMP since the day I bought this machine and RAM is at 4600 MT/s, If XMP can work stably I can get 5600 MT/s on my DDR5 DIMM, but no its not stable)

MultiCore Enhancement off (i had a bad instinct about so I turned off this since beginning)

C States off (this one, I don't want power savings)

SpeedStep off (this one was causing crashes)

SpeedShift on

With these, server was running good only. I had random crashes since the beginning, I overcame it by modifying some kernel params, slub_debug=F which tells the kernel not to use a corrupted page and look for an alternative, that let my server run without any issues, until one day a power failure happened, it never booted, unless we turn off all P cores except 1. 

Now with Intel Fail-Safe SVID, I can boot with 32 cores, but my VMs are crashing randomly, which is a pain. So I turned off all P cores. 

I have asked my vendor for a spare i7 I will try to swap them and see if the issue occurs. If issue doesn't occur, I may ask my vendor to upgrade me to 14900k that's launching soon I believe since this model has issues. I shared all these URL with my vendor too to keep him updated about what's going on. 

[LoloWiwi]

Hey @seitam ,

I feel you, man, believe me... It can be a nightmare...

For opening a new thread or not, I don't know...

First of all you probably need to provide more info : MB ? RAM ? power supply ?

Have you tried to change the following params in your BIOS :

- Enable SVID Behavior = "Intel's Fail Safe" --> it's the one who saved me

- "MultiCore Enhancement" = disabled (seems to be a motherboard-related overclocking who is enabled by default, at least on Asus MBs)

In my case : my PC has been stable (apps/games don't crash anymore) since SVID Behavior = "Intel's Fail Safe"

[seitam]

Hello @LoloWiwi 

Good to hear you have an option to stop crashing, but looks like it reduce the CPU lifetime.
I've been looking for this option and cannot find it anywere, even in mobo manual.

This is my setup

CPU: Intel Core i9-13900KF 3 GHz 24-Core Processor
CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-U9S chromax.black 46.4 CFM CPU Cooler
Thermal Compound: Noctua NT-H2 3.5 g Thermal Paste
Motherboard: ASRock Z690 Phantom Gaming 4/D5 ATX LGA1700 Motherboard
Memory: G.Skill Trident Z5 RGB 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR5-6800 CL34 Memory
Storage: Samsung 970 Evo Plus 1 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 3.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive
Storage: Samsung 980 Pro 1 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive
Video Card: Gigabyte EAGLE OC GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Video Card)
Case: Lian Li O11D XL-X ATX Full Tower Case
Power Supply: EVGA 850 GQ 850 W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-modular ATX Power Supply
Monitor: BenQ XL2430T 24.0" 1920 x 1080 144 Hz Monitor
Monitor: Alienware AW3423DWF 34.2" 3440 x 1440 165 Hz Curved Monitor
Keyboard: Logitech G915 TKL RGB Wireless Gaming Keyboard
Mouse: Logitech PRO X Superlight 2 Wireless/Wired Optical Mouse
Headphones: JBL Quantum 800 Headset

[LoloWiwi]

Hi Seitam,

As, you have an Asrock MB, maybe you have some kind of equivalent for "SVID Behavior", I hope.

My advice would be for you to open a new thread on Intel Community with all the infos you provided, and somebody from Intel will assist you, they are specialists and might know what to do with an i9-13900KF + Asrock Z690 Phantom Gaming 4

My guess (but I leave it to them to assist you much better than I'll ever do) is that they'll ask you to install Intel Processor Diagnostic Tool, run it, check if it passes, provide the logs, try a few params in the bios, etc. to see if it's a CPU or MB or settings problem.

Last note : as for SVID Behavior and if it reduces CPU lifetime, I don't know yet, I'm not a specialist.

I asked a question in this thread to Intel about that : I want to understand what SVID Behavior really does, and if it really over-volts the CPU to compensate for a "problematic" CPU (as we all heard about the "silicon lottery" where one might get a CPU that is not stable at the speeds "marketed" by Intel) when it is set to "Intel Fail Safe".

[DeividA_Intel]

Hello LoloWiwi, 

Thanks for your response. In this case, if possible, run the Intel® Processor Diagnostic Tool using the settings that give you issues. However, if it is not possible due to a crash or something similar, let me know and run the tool under the settings that allow you to run it.

Also, I would like to know what happens if you disable MCE in Bios with the SVID Behavior set at a different option.

Regards,   

Deivid A.  

Intel Customer Support Technician 

[LoloWiwi]

Hi Deivid,

I ran 3 Intel Processor Diagnostics Tool tests with BIOS parameters:

- SVID Behavior="Intel Fail Safe" + MultiCore Enhancement = disabled-enforce all limits"

- SVID Behavior="auto" + MultiCore Enhancement = auto-let's bios optimize"

- SVID Behavior="auto" + MultiCore Enhancement = disabled-enforce all limits"

All 3 PASS according to IPDT (see attached files, filenames mention the bios settings).

Also, I recorded a YouTube video with SVID Behavior="auto" + MultiCore Enhancement = disabled-enforce all limits".

It shows that IPDT passed, but I run Cinebench R23, that crashes after 3min5sec.

Here it is : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl58LTpdhb0

So, I don't understand the Intel Processor Diagnostic Tool : it finishes in 2 minutes, and primer numbers test runs for 45 seconds only.
How a stress test can run for such a short amount of time? Stress testing should be much longer to really test a CPU/cores... 

Thanks in advance for your feedback

Laurent