Re: DXVA specifications for G45 chipset?

casimir666 · ‎09-15-2008

Hello,

I'm one of the authors of "Media Player Classic - Homecinema" (http://sourceforge.net/projects/mpc-hc/). This open source playeralready supportDXVA bitstream decodingwith ATI and nVidia graphics cards.

We plan to add support for Intel G45, but we have to following problem : standard Gui for H264 bitstream decoder (DXVA2_ModeH264_E and DXVA2_ModeH264_F) didn't seems to be implemented on G45. Furthermore, calls to function GetDecoderDeviceGuids on interface IDirectXVideoDecoderService return 2 Gui that did not appears in Microsoft DXVA specifications : BCC5DB6D-A2B6-4AF0-ACE4-ADB1F787BC89 and 604F8E68-4951-4C54-88FE-ABD25C15B3D6. I guess one of the is for VC1, and the other for H264 bitstream decoder.

So my question is :does Intel use a specific protocol for bitstream decoder, and if so is it possible to have the specifications?

Thanks

Casimir

Chris_M_Intel · ‎09-19-2008

I'll look into this and let you know what I find.

Chris

Chris_M_Intel · ‎09-23-2008

It took me a couple of days as I had some dialog with the media engineers. Essentially, G45 doesn't support the standard GUIDs for VC1 or AVC, and the private specifications are not publicly available.

It reminds me of a philosophical question - if an interfacehas no spec and no one is able to use it,does it truly exist?

Chris

casimir666 · ‎09-23-2008

Thanks a lot Chris for your efforts to answer my question. I hope Intel will change his mind and publish this specifications in the future.

Regards,

Casimir

Chris_M_Intel · ‎09-25-2008

Heh, me too. I'm continuing to push for this internally. We'll see how far I get.

Chris

mlohse · ‎10-17-2008

I am coming across this thread after a longer research on the web: I would be very interested in getting all technical information about how to use hardware decoding of the G45 / X4500HD platforms in custom software, i.e. is it fully DXVA compliant (1.0 and/or 2.0)? Is there an other (Intel) API for accessing these features? Is the API publicly available? If not (as it seems), how am I able to get access to this information?

Thank you. Marco

Cijo_Abraham_Mani · ‎10-18-2008

Quoting - mlohse

I am coming across this thread after a longer research on the web: I would be very interested in getting all technical information about how to use hardware decoding of the G45 / X4500HD platforms in custom software, i.e. is it fully DXVA compliant (1.0 and/or 2.0)? Is there an other (Intel) API for accessing these features? Is the API publicly available? If not (as it seems), how am I able to get access to this information?

Thank you. Marco

Have you gone through the product specification ? Please go through the following PDF file .

http://www.intel.com/assets/pdf/prodbrief/dg45id_product_brief.pdf

The information you are searching for might would be available there .

Regards ,

Cijo

mlohse · ‎10-20-2008

Quoting - cijoaj2003

Have you gone through the product specification ? Please go through the following PDF file .

http://www.intel.com/assets/pdf/prodbrief/dg45id_product_brief.pdf

The information you are searching for might would be available there .

Regards ,

Cijo

Thank you for your reply. From the pdf file you referenced (or the product brief of dg45fc, which I already read), I am unable to answer my questions, i.e. the document only says that DirectX 10 is supported, and some end-user software is included, which is related to media processing and playback. On the other hand, the discussion in this thread points out that some interfaces for hardware decoding are not public, are they?

alex-domoq · ‎10-21-2008

I would like to add, that X4500HD drivers for Windows XP seams to not support H264 HW Acceleration at all.

I have tried all the accelerated codecs: TotalMedia, PowerDVD, WinDVD, etc, and they are not able to unload CPU from decoding in Windows XP, while they can in Vista.

Anyone can confirm this?

davidc1 · ‎10-21-2008

Quoting - alex-domoq

I would like to add, that X4500HD drivers for Windows XP seams to not support H264 HW Acceleration at all.

I have tried all the accelerated codecs: TotalMedia, PowerDVD, WinDVD, etc, and they are not able to unload CPU from decoding in Windows XP, while they can in Vista.

Anyone can confirm this?

Intel follows the HDCP rules more strictly than ATI/Nvidia. Windows XP hardware acceleration with HD video aren't supported because of that. They don't like bending rules.

alex-domoq · ‎10-21-2008

Quoting - davidc1

Intel follows the HDCP rules more strictly than ATI/Nvidia. Windows XP hardware acceleration with HD video aren't supported because of that. They don't like bending rules.

What does it means? HDCP is supported by the chipset. If the driver conforms to PAVP, the HW accelerationcan be used on any operating System (linux inclusive).
Can you calirfy your statement?

alex-domoq · ‎10-21-2008

Also, I would like to restate the first question: seen there is no way to write down a custom codecimplementation due a lack of specifications, is there any commercial codec supporting DXVA bitstreaming acceleration (both for H264 and VC-1), so a user canfully take advantage of the investment inits G45-based motherboard?

Thanks!

Alex

alex-domoq · ‎10-23-2008

Any reply?

alex-domoq · ‎10-24-2008

Intel: are you willing to sell yourproducts, or not?

Chris_M_Intel · ‎10-28-2008

Quoting - alex-domoq

Intel: are you willing to sell yourproducts, or not?

Doh! We were supposed to sell them? I knew we forgot something. :)

There are commercial players in the market that use the HW acceleration provided by the chipset. Some OEMs even bundle them on the systems that they sell. The problem raised by this thread is that the specs are not available to the general developers in the world so they can also write these type of applications. While several of us internally are strving to get these specs released, the current direction is to keep them under lock and key.It's not a big conspiracy; it's simply some of management's fear that content protection schemes could be broken by releasing these specs. I don't believe that to be the case, but as soon as the words "liability" and "lawsuits" get dropped, people get very hesitant to release anything to the public.

Chris

7oby · ‎10-29-2008

Quoting - alex-domoq

is there any commercial codec supporting DXVA bitstreaming acceleration (both for H264 and VC-1)

. Cyberlink PowerDVD 8 Ultra works, but has repeater issues (click). But it really has to be a recent version, since e.g. v8.0.1903.50 doesn't work (click).

. Arcsoft TotalMedia Theater works, but has repeater issues as well.

. Corel WinDVD 9 Plus BluRay works and seems to have less repeater issues (click and scroll down).

alex-domoq · ‎10-31-2008

Quoting - 7oby

. Cyberlink PowerDVD 8 Ultra works, but has repeater issues (click). But it really has to be a recent version, since e.g. v8.0.1903.50 doesn't work (click).

. Arcsoft TotalMedia Theater works, but has repeater issues as well.

. Corel WinDVD 9 Plus BluRay works and seems to have less repeater issues (click and scroll down).

Tried all 3 SW. No HW Accleration under XPSP3, while I get HW Acceleration in VISTA.

7oby · ‎11-04-2008

Quoting - alex-domoq

Tried all 3 SW. No HW Accleration under XPSP3, while I get HW Acceleration in VISTA.

Thanks for testing!

That's a very interesting aspect. We know that nVidia and ATI cards to support GPU accelerated for BluRay on WinXP and we do know it doesn't work with intel cards. Archibal once remarked that XP doesn't offer the software stack that allowed decoding of copy protected content without interception and intel is afraid of any potential uncertainties regarding law matters. Thus not supporting XP. This argument has been repeated in this thread.

Now it seems: Not only the GPU assisted playback of copy protected streams is NOT supported on WinXP, but also the entire GPU assisted playback API for H.264/MPEG4-AVC streams or decoding stages is either broken or not available in WinXP! That's quite a difference!

That again means intel is selling features simply not available. Intel presents a quite detailed summary of GPU assisted video decoding stages of current hardware here. This presentation suggests you get the features with Intel Clear Video Technology, which is available on Windows XP as well as Vista. This has just been proven wrong!

Intel is not only keeping the DXVA API for H.264 playback away, but also not telling which software enables these features!

I made similar experiences with hardware assisted DXVA MPEG-2 playback on intel hardware here. Maybe there is MPEG-2 hardware assisted playback somewhere with some software in some laboratory, but it doesn't seem to work with common software (that even holds for the Linux drivers: XvMC is only enabled with very particular drivers and playback software). At that time I already asked intel to make very clear: Which feature is available with which software!

alex-domoq · ‎11-06-2008

Quoting - 7oby

Thanks for testing!

That's a very interesting aspect. We know that nVidia and ATI cards to support GPU accelerated for BluRay on WinXP and we do know it doesn't work with intel cards. Archibal once remarked that XP doesn't offer the software stack that allowed decoding of copy protected content without interception and intel is afraid of any potential uncertainties regarding law matters. Thus not supporting XP. This argument has been repeated in this thread.

Now it seems: Not only the GPU assisted playback of copy protected streams is NOT supported on WinXP, but also the entire GPU assisted playback API for H.264/MPEG4-AVC streams or decoding stages is either broken or not available in WinXP! That's quite a difference!

That again means intel is selling features simply not available. Intel presents a quite detailed summary of GPU assisted video decoding stages of current hardware here. This presentation suggests you get the features with Intel Clear Video Technology, which is available on Windows XP as well as Vista. This has just been proven wrong!

Intel is not only keeping the DXVA API for H.264 playback away, but also not telling which software enables these features!

I made similar experiences with hardware assisted DXVA MPEG-2 playback on intel hardware here. Maybe there is MPEG-2 hardware assisted playback somewhere with some software in some laboratory, but it doesn't seem to work with common software (that even holds for the Linux drivers: XvMC is only enabled with very particular drivers and playback software). At that time I already asked intel to make very clear: Which feature is available with which software!

alex-domoq · ‎11-06-2008

As an OEM and a channel program partner I have open a support case.
It's now closed with this response: It's confirmed INTEL doesn't and won't support G45 HW Acceleration (of any type) on Windows XP.
This is a real shame since we will have plannedbuilding more than 5.000 htpc for every year, mean $100 * 5.000 = $500.000 lost for Intel Business. This is a drop in the sea of Intel Business, but adding this to many other OEM going to NVIDIA or AMD chipset, could be an interesting lost of business.
Anyway good to know we have to change m/b in our stage of designing. Very good and quick work from the support. I'm very satisfied with them, not satisfiedat all from the productdevelopment side.

gracianobf · ‎12-02-2008

Hi everyone.

I just bought a laptop with a 4500MHD graphics adapter and now I'm starting to realize it was a bad choice. I was fooled by the marketing hype Intel made about it being remarkably better than previous integrated graphics solutions from Intel, specially regarding the new HD video-decoding functions (I'm not a PC gamer). It's very frustrating to see that I can't use the hardware I bought to the fullest of its capacity because Intel has some vague problems about something that doesn't seem to affect the competition and blocks open source developers from working for free to make Intel's hardware fully enjoyed.

I really hope that this decision is reversed. And I hope you realize that I'm just an average user that has spent the last week struggling to find a way of playing some videos in his brand new computer, only to find out this thread. Argh.