eye strain

[CNeub]

hello,

I have a Notebook with Intel Core i7 4710 - Intel Graphics 4600 and external Nvidia Gforce GTX 850M for about 2 weeks now. I connect the Notebook on two different places per HDMI with nearly three year old lg monitors. With my old Notebook (Intel Core2Duo and Nvidia Gforce 9500GT) I had not any problems with this two monitors. However when I connect one of the two monitors with my new Notebook I get eye strain and headache. Of course I use the right resolution FullHD and tried out different brigthness and contrast adjustments in intel graphic properties. OS is Windows 7 Prof x64 and the newest drivers are installed. Version:15.33.22.64.3621

Nearly two months ago I purchased an other Notebook with Intel Core i7 4700MQ - Intel Graphics 4600 and Nvidia Gforce GT755 M. I had the same problem there and so I sent it back, because I thought that the Notebook has an defect. I tried out Windows 7 and Windows 8 and had the same eye problems in the two different OS.Now I do not really know what the problem exactly is, because I have these problems with two different Notebooks on two different external LG Monitors and the integrated Displays of the Notebooks. But I thinkt the problem is the Intel HD 4600. Maybe that there is something wrong with the driver.Do you have any ideas about this? Couse I can't purchase and send back new Notebooks all the time.

Sorry for my bad english

[MJana1]

Thank you for your answer. Unfortunately there is no differene for me in plugged vs. unplugged, the eyestrain is the same. Its a new dell xps 15, 9560, reported to have no PWM by notebookcheck.net.

Therefore I guess the issue must be the driver, unless there are other things not yet researched. Some people reported older versions of windows 10 are better, but I am unable to test it as the laptop is still in trial period and installing

a new system might void it. Tried to boot from external drive but win 10 seems to make it really complicated to do so.

[SMohd2]

Well at least we know using on-battery have no effect on eye strain on laptop with Windows 10. I have read users reported that the newer versions of Windows 10 (anniversary edition?) produces eye strain. Not sure if this could be the reason why you still feel the eye strain.

I tried this on my Lenovo T420s laptop, which is on Windows 7 Pro, and it does have a positive impact on eye strain.

kracjar20 What operating system are you using on your laptop, the one that does not give you eye strain when you use the laptop unplugged?

[PSobc2]

I realized it on Linux Red Hat, but i tried also on Windows 8.1, same effect - on battery power my eyes felt much better.

I will try on Windows 10 and let you know.

[n_scott_pearson]

Your eyes felt better because, in battery mode, the default is to use a lower brightness setting. This is to save power, obviously, but it also reduces eye strain. You can do the same thing yourself by manually adjusting the brightness.

In my office, I almost never use any direct lighting (i.e. ceiling lighting). I instead use only a small light on my desk (for off-screen reading) and this is off to the side, not behind my monitors or behind me. This allows me to use a much, much lower brightness setting on my monitors and thus save on eye strain.

...S

[PSobc2]

No, this is definietly not related with brightness level. I tried with and without AC power on different brightness levels and i feel difference, for 100%.

[SMohd2]

@ N. Scott Pearson

In my case, I have set the brightness to be 100% for both plugged-in and on-battery. The Intel Graphics Power Plan is also set to maximum performance for both plugged-in and on-battery. This is how I have been using my Lenovo Thinkpad T420s laptop for the last 5 years. If I lower the screen brightness to other than 100%, then PWM will kick in and the screen flickering from PWM will give me eye strain. But with the screen brightness at 100%, there is no PWM-flickering (and no eye strain). I do use a software called Powerstrip to "artificially" lower the brightness of the screen. It also helps that this laptop does not have a very bright screen, so at 100% brightness it is quite usable.

Here are my Advanced Power settings:

So it is not because of the brightness. There must be something else that is causing the "relief" in eye strain when using the laptop on-battery, at least on my Windows 7 Pro. Something for Intel to investigate.

[n_scott_pearson]

Hhmmm, I wonder if the difference is AC (50/60Hz) interference. On battery, you wouldn't have the interference and thus it would be easier on the eye...

...S

[PSobc2]

Hello,

I tried on both , 50 and 60 Hz on AC and battery power aswell. Unfortunately i feel the difference .

[vvitt]

Hy,

Until last july, I had two machine very good for my eyes, a laptop Intel 3 core with a intel hd 3000 video card (Running whit Windows 😎 and a desktop intel 3 with an intel hd 2500 (running windows 7 service pack). In July, Microsft realesed a security update who changed kernel drivers, windows drivers, graphic system mode, some part of office, ecc. and my laptop and my desktop suddenly became completely not usable for my eyes. The drivers oh the video card are not changed, the monitor are the same. I think the rendering system for video is changed in some way. How I can downgrade the system? How can I undestand which part of the video system was modified by the update?

[SMohd2]

@viv93

Your situation is exactly like mine was. Same laptop, same hardware, same spec, we get eye strain when we upgrade the software/driver. So it must be the software/driver update, as nothing else was changed. This makes it easier to identify (the cause of eye strain) and to solve it. The main suspect is the intel graphics driver. Try go to Control Panel and see the driver date for your graphics card. If it is the latest (2017), chances are that the graphics driver has been upgraded during the windows update. You can go to your laptop manufacturer website and find the older version of the driver. Get as old as possible, so that you have the highest chance of getting one that does not cause you eye strain.

If after installing the older graphics driver still give you eye strain, that means there might be something else that is causing the eye strain. Time to eliminate other potential causes of eye strain. Keep using the old driver. Look at the list of things that windows update has installed, e.g. kernel drivers, graphics system mode etc. Try to uninstall those updates one at a time, and see if it the eye strain is still there or not. Very important to uninstall one at a time, and test to see you still get eye strain or not. Try those related to graphics first. To uninstall the updates, for windows 7, go to Control Panel -> Windows Update -> View Update History -> Installed Updates and select from there to uninstall. Good luck.

[MJärv]

I can also confirm that I'm now one of those who have eye strain with laptops that are confirmed not to have PWM. For years I had problems only with laptops with PWM. I was able to use laptops & displays at 100% brightness, If there was no PWM at 100%. I've now been testing Lenovo X1 Carbon with WQHD (5th gen) and Surface Laptop. Both are confirmed not to have PWM at any brightness level. I also have tested with my DSLR and cannot see any kind of flickering, contrary to many other devices which are reportedly PWM free. But still, especially with the X1 Carbon, I used it for about 6 hours on two days and it took my eyes 3 days to recover from the totally bloodshot to normal. Surface Laptop seems to give some mild irritation too, but I might be able to cope with that. Wearing blue blockers or reducing the brightness does not have any effect. In fact, I was using the X1 only in the evening (wearing blue blocking glasses), so the brightness level was anyways almost at the lowest.

To be honest, I first thought that the people who seem to have a problems with a PWM free screen, might be confusing the problem with something else. But now after dealing with this problem for 25 years and finally getting eye strain from a PWM free screen, I can confirm that there must be something additional to PWM. I'm still absolutely sure that PWM is an independed factor, as the flickering produces red eyes even if I'm just in a room where there is a flickering screen. But now either Intel has made something to the drivers, or then there is something in the display technology of these new laptops that is causing the eye strain. (Something else than PWM). I also do have the Ditherig.exe installed, to remove the temporal dithering, but that does not seem to have any effect. (I'm not sure if the ditherig.exe. actually works, as it does not seem to have any effect). Additionally, I had HP Folio that did not produce eye strain with Win 8 and circa 2014 drivers. Now I'm unable to use it with Win 10 and new drivers. It has PWM, but not at 100%, and I have always used it at 100%.

I have not yet tried to test these laptops with my HP 27 inch display, which,has for the past 5 years, been completely problem free. Even with very strained bloodshot eyes, I can "rest my eyes" with that display. But I do have an NVIDIA display adapter in that computer.

Anyways, it will be difficult the test this with the HP display - I would need to have completely rested eyes and I would need to use the display at least 8 hours to be absolutely sure, that the laptop is producing the problem. Since I need to take these laptops back, probably will not have time to do that. My hunch still is that it's rather something in the display or LED back light itself, than the drivers or Windows version.

[MGonz15]

Hi there!

I'm suffering some really heavy Eye Strain issue with some Dell laptops (Inspiron and Latitude) and now with an LG TV. I'm almost sure it has something to do with the technology and not with my glasses or distance to screen or anything else. I made a short survey while trying to find more people with this issue. Maybe we can help each other.

https://goo.gl/forms/MqpqXrsXJSsM23wf2

Please also help by sharing the link with more people suffering this Eye Strain issue! (It hasn't been easy to track more people with this 'condition', but It seems we are more than just a few (although spread all over the world).

I'll post the results as soon as available. Any suggestions are welcome!

[PRome1]

I've been relatively eyestrain-free for about a year and a half now, until the most recent Windows 10 update KB4033637. I checked, and it did not change my display driver... it was 20.19.15.4531 before, and it is still the same. But I noticed SEVERE eyestrain when that update was applied, and it went away when I rolled it back. It silently reinstalled itself in the background, and I have had some low-grade eyestrain since then, but I have been able to cope. I know this is an Intel thread and not Microsoft, but does anyone know how to tell exactly what was in that update? Microsoft doesn't release much information on most of these.

[MBurl2]

Hi guys,

Here is my story: I'm a software developer and I'm used to sit in a front of a computer for long hours a day for years. I had never had any problem with my eyes. However, the things changed circa year ago when I decided to buy a new laptop and new smartphone at the same time.

Till now, I have tested many types of devices: at least five types of laptops and more than six types of smartphones. For sure, I tried several new monitors with my old computer. I tried different brands and different technologies as was possible. But all of them did me more or less unbearable eye strain after a short time of viewing. TN, IPS, LED-backlit or OLED, Intel inbuilt graphics or dedicated NVidia, everything was terrible for me.

I saw the ophthalmologist and optician as well, bought new glasses with the blue filter, but problems didn't disappear. The only solution was to get back to my old laptop and old phone. All my old proved devices were like a balsam for my eyes in comparison with any new one!

Currently, I have ~5Y old laptop (HP Elitebook with TN panel+LED backlit). However, I use it with two monitors connected via docking station most of the time. At my three working places, including my home office, I have 6 different monitors of varied brands and varied technologies. TN/IPS panel, PWM/flicker-free, CFCL/LED backlit - I have everything and I can use them with no problems. The point is that the newest of my devices is approximately 3Y old.

My conclusion is that something with display technology must have been changed. I bet that the reason is some "improvement" of white LEDs. Why LED? Because I can't bear not only displays with LED backlit, but OLED display too.

Maybe some of you guys have an opportunity to compare/measure some old and some brand-new display in an optical laboratory? It so, it would be really interesting to get know if there are any differences affirming my hypothesis or not.

[MJärv]

I seem to be in the same position now: Since changing jobs, I got a new HP laptop (old elitebook 820, with win7) I've tested Surface Pro 2017, Surface Laptop, Lenovo Carbon X1 WQHD 5th generation, Lenovo Yoga 910 4k, but all of these produce severe eyestrain and bloodshot eyes. Common factor is that all of these have an Intel display adapter. I think there must be something that Intel has made to the drivers. It is not depending on the Windows version since I've tested with 7-10. My old Lenovo T420 with circa 2014 drivers and Win7 was not causing ANY eye strain. Neither is my home PC with a HP display and NVidia GeForce.

Is anyone from Intel anymore monitoring this discussion? All of these devices are PWM free at all brightness levels or then 100% brightness. I'm quite sure that it must be something that Intel has done at the driver level, as otherwise this does not make any sense. Previously the source of irritation has always been PWM. If no PWM, no eye strain. Now several laptops without PWM are causing severe eye strain.

I'm not able to go back to the old device, so I need to find a laptop that I can use without getting bloodshot eyes.

[MBurl2]

Hi,

please let us know if you find a laptop causing no eyestrain to you. There are some models I tried till now and after testing put away:

Laptops: Toshiba Portege Z30, Dell Inspiron 15, HP Elite 755 G4, Dell 7440, Eurocom Q5, Lenovo Yoga

Monitors: HP e243i, e241i, Philips 273V5

[GCh]

Hi!

About a year ago I helped a guy with his new Skylake laptop.

He had eyes strain just after few minutes of laptop usage. Other computer displays at work and at home were ok to him.

My first suggestion was PWM flickering - but that laptop didn't have any. Than I suggested to reduce blue colors, and it helped. He reduced blue with windows screen calibration settings for about 15%, as he said, and laptop display was ok for him since then.

So may be reducing blue and/or red colors could, at least, make things better?

[MJärv]

This is probably then something else. My problem is not relieved by any color related settings, or blue blocker glasses. I've e.g. used the Night Mode that is in Win 10 nowadays, and previously F.Lux, but those make no difference. Also, what I've read during the years from the forums, nobody else seems to get any relief from f.lux or any blue blocking glasses. PWM is clearly one of the problems, but additionally I'm now quite convinced that there is another type of flicker, (Temporal Dithering?) that is causing the eye strain.

[GCh]

About colors - may be you should block more than just blue hues - restrict red too (from another end of the spectrum)

Some experiments here:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/1677617%3Fstart%3D405%26tstart%3D0 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/1677617?start=405&tstart=0

Also interesting, about Correlated color temperature:

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/21/health/led-streetlights-ama/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/21/health/led-streetlights-ama/index.html

About flickering:

Playing with the following LCD tests:

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/inversion.php http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/inversion.php

I've found, that in "inversion" test, when recorded on high fps/slow-motion video, some images may look very strangely, like a unusual noise.

So, may be somebody with really good camera could record some relevant images & patterns and compare how image looks e.g. with old drivers, which are okay, and the new ones, when eyes hurt.

About drivers:

Here a guy posted few lines of source code from Intel GPU driver for Linux kernel, which seems to turn on dithering always for all 6bit LVDS panels:

https://ledstrain.org/d/24-temporal-dithering-testing/10 https://ledstrain.org/d/24-temporal-dithering-testing/10

Btw, if there's a laptop, where 2011th driver works well, and 2013th is not, it mustn't be hard to find exact version which introduce bug, is it?

[MJärv]

25 years of no problems with screens that do not have PWM. So it's not the red nor the blue. I have several screens that cause no eye strain. Also, PWM is without doubt causing eye strain each and every time. So it is some soft of flicker, as flicker free displays cause no problems.

[GCh]

About PWM - those two LCD test pages about other types of flickering like temporal dithering which could take place in modern screens.

Also about colors - may be new drivers force some screens to emit high amounts of light on ends of visible spectrum, which is hardly visible by itself, but makes eyes tired: backlights are changing, firmwares are changing, color ranges become wider, comparing to old screens, new "energy saving" and "image enhancing" tricks also may take place.